The Democrat Utopia

Lorewarn said:
If they're interested in informing their opinion with more than just their feelings, they'll have plenty of internal motivation to look it up for themselves. To anyone interested, by all means, don't take my word for it; google is very easy to use.

If they would rather stick to their feelings instead of facts, I don't see any need to waste any more of my time. 
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It’s still ironic though. 

 
Archy1221 said:
It’s still ironic though. 
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I'm interested in where the irony is. They admitted up front that their opinion is based off nothing other than their feelings. Did I not properly differentiate myself by explaining that I'm offering data rather than my own feelings? If that wasn't clear, sorry for the confusion. I'm sharing information rather than opinion, because as well all know facts don't care about feelings.

 
Lorewarn said:
As long as you freely admit that this is how you feel and isn't supported by anything.

Here's the numbers for you. About half of pregnancies are unintended ones. About half of those end up in abortions. More than half of those aborted pregnancies happened despite the woman using contraceptives, so at the absolute highest amount, that's less than 1/8 women could be considered to be using abortion as birth control. The real number is impossible to know, but surely lower than that when you actually factor for the myriad other considerations and reasoning for someone in that scenario.
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I'd be interested in where you're getting your numbers.

I"m not 100% against abortion. The biggest argument against seems to be for religious reasons. I don't know whether a soul enters at procreation, which is the Religious Right's biggest argument outside of simply "sex is only for procreation."

I think in cases of rape its totally justifiable. I don't really understand the incest angle (either its rape or its consensual). I do have question, for which I don't have the answer, about "abortion" in regards to the saving the mother's life. From what I've heard (no link) it makes more sense to deliver the fetus than to terminate the pregnancy (whether or not the fetus lives in that instance is a different situation) when the woman's life is at risk. Yet, there are probably circumstances that support both. 

My "problem" with the pro-abortion club is the smug sales pitch provided by many.

  • A cells/zygote/fetus/whatever is not "life." Bulls#!t. Barring a complication, life is the expected outcome of the conception.
  • Which leads me to the "women's health issue." No, its the health of the fetus thats at risk. A woman's body is built for pregnancy. Yes, when there is a complication it becomes a health issue for the woman. Else, a man getting a boner should be considered a health issue. 
  • The fetus versus the mother's life debate spin. A woman can find any doctor with a political agenda to provide an excuse to abort and claim the mother's life was at risk. 
  • Even though it may be the vast minority that use abortion for 'the right to f#&% without the responsibility of parenthood' or will abort until they get the designer baby they're after. I wish the pro abortion crowd would openly denounce this type of behavior instead of only focusing on the "rights" aspect of the debate.

My view is the battle for abortion has been "won," unless your belief is that it should be able to occur at any point of the pregnancy and for any reason. Most people believe and have voted to reasonably allow abortion. 

While I get there are some (likely a minority) that will always be anti-abortion and contraception, sans additional information about a "soul", my utopia would be the development of a "before" pill/solution than "after." 

 
hskrpwr13 said:
I'd be interested in where you're getting your numbers.

I"m not 100% against abortion. The biggest argument against seems to be for religious reasons. I don't know whether a soul enters at procreation, which is the Religious Right's biggest argument outside of simply "sex is only for procreation."

I think in cases of rape its totally justifiable. I don't really understand the incest angle (either its rape or its consensual). I do have question, for which I don't have the answer, about "abortion" in regards to the saving the mother's life. From what I've heard (no link) it makes more sense to deliver the fetus than to terminate the pregnancy (whether or not the fetus lives in that instance is a different situation) when the woman's life is at risk. Yet, there are probably circumstances that support both. 

My "problem" with the pro-abortion club is the smug sales pitch provided by many.

  • A cells/zygote/fetus/whatever is not "life." Bulls#!t. Barring a complication, life is the expected outcome of the conception.
  • Which leads me to the "women's health issue." No, its the health of the fetus thats at risk. A woman's body is built for pregnancy. Yes, when there is a complication it becomes a health issue for the woman. Else, a man getting a boner should be considered a health issue. 
  • The fetus versus the mother's life debate spin. A woman can find any doctor with a political agenda to provide an excuse to abort and claim the mother's life was at risk. 
  • Even though it may be the vast minority that use abortion for 'the right to f#&% without the responsibility of parenthood' or will abort until they get the designer baby they're after. I wish the pro abortion crowd would openly denounce this type of behavior instead of only focusing on the "rights" aspect of the debate.

My view is the battle for abortion has been "won," unless your belief is that it should be able to occur at any point of the pregnancy and for any reason. Most people believe and have voted to reasonably allow abortion. 

While I get there are some (likely a minority) that will always be anti-abortion and contraception, sans additional information about a "soul", my utopia would be the development of a "before" pill/solution than "after." 
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I don’t believe you to be very informed on this topic. 

 
hskrpwr13 said:
I'd be interested in where you're getting your numbers.

I"m not 100% against abortion. The biggest argument against seems to be for religious reasons. I don't know whether a soul enters at procreation, which is the Religious Right's biggest argument outside of simply "sex is only for procreation."

I think in cases of rape its totally justifiable. I don't really understand the incest angle (either its rape or its consensual). I do have question, for which I don't have the answer, about "abortion" in regards to the saving the mother's life. From what I've heard (no link) it makes more sense to deliver the fetus than to terminate the pregnancy (whether or not the fetus lives in that instance is a different situation) when the woman's life is at risk. Yet, there are probably circumstances that support both. 

My "problem" with the pro-abortion club is the smug sales pitch provided by many.

  • A cells/zygote/fetus/whatever is not "life." Bulls#!t. Barring a complication, life is the expected outcome of the conception.
  • Which leads me to the "women's health issue." No, its the health of the fetus thats at risk. A woman's body is built for pregnancy. Yes, when there is a complication it becomes a health issue for the woman. Else, a man getting a boner should be considered a health issue. 
  • The fetus versus the mother's life debate spin. A woman can find any doctor with a political agenda to provide an excuse to abort and claim the mother's life was at risk. 
  • Even though it may be the vast minority that use abortion for 'the right to f#&% without the responsibility of parenthood' or will abort until they get the designer baby they're after. I wish the pro abortion crowd would openly denounce this type of behavior instead of only focusing on the "rights" aspect of the debate.

My view is the battle for abortion has been "won," unless your belief is that it should be able to occur at any point of the pregnancy and for any reason. Most people believe and have voted to reasonably allow abortion. 

While I get there are some (likely a minority) that will always be anti-abortion and contraception, sans additional information about a "soul", my utopia would be the development of a "before" pill/solution than "after." 
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With all due respect, please take the time to go visit with an OBGYN and have an honest conversation with them.  
 

My wife is a NICU nurse that also experienced high risk pregnancy herself.  We tried for years to get pregnant and luckily through fertility treatments we were successful.  Depending on the amount of embryos, reduction was definitely an option.  We ended up with 3 of her eggs being viable so it was thankfully a nonissue.  But we were glad we had options to save our family if necessary.

We’ve also had a pregnancy end. Not in a miscarriage, but the embryo heartbeat faded and eventually ended.  Yes, her body would have eventually “absorbed” it and eliminated, but we chose to have her doctor terminate the pregnancy so we could get closure and begin trying again.  An option that most likely won’t be possible in Nebraska now since my wife’s life wasn’t at risk.

Abortion, is a discussion that only should happen between the people involved and their doctors.  It’s not an issue that has a “one size fits all” for regulation.  It’s way too complicated.

 
hskrpwr13 said:
Thanks for the assistance. LOL
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I would implore you to read more. The idea that these women are finding doctors who can fake that their lives are in danger is probably the worst part of your post, so I think you should do more research on women’s health during pregnancy, and the statistics. But if you think the doctors are lying I suppose you can ignore all of the numbers. 

funhusker has a good reply that you can read. 

It honestly just gets exhausting sometimes as a woman to see takes like yours. I don’t think you are being an a$$h@!e about it but there is a lot of ignorance in what you posted. And I actually agree with your first bullet. The argument that it’s not alive when there’s probably a 99% chance it ends in a healthy baby is a bad one. But that 1% involves endangered lives, and the woman should always get to choose to save her own life. And in some places that isn’t what’s happening. You should stop downplaying this. 

 
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funhusker said:
With all due respect, please take the time to go visit with an OBGYN and have an honest conversation with them.  
 

My wife is a NICU nurse that also experienced high risk pregnancy herself.  We tried for years to get pregnant and luckily through fertility treatments we were successful.  Depending on the amount of embryos, reduction was definitely an option.  We ended up with 3 of her eggs being viable so it was thankfully a nonissue.  But we were glad we had options to save our family if necessary.

We’ve also had a pregnancy end. Not in a miscarriage, but the embryo heartbeat faded and eventually ended.  Yes, her body would have eventually “absorbed” it and eliminated, but we chose to have her doctor terminate the pregnancy so we could get closure and begin trying again.  An option that most likely won’t be possible in Nebraska now since my wife’s life wasn’t at risk.

Abortion, is a discussion that only should happen between the people involved and their doctors.  It’s not an issue that has a “one size fits all” for regulation.  It’s way too complicated.
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Thank you for sharing. You and your wife obviously went through something I don't wish for anyone.

I apologize for not being more clear that I'm commenting from a macro perspective and did not intend to opine on anyone's specific circumstances. Your circumstance is not where I would take some level of an anti-abortion stance. I've had conversations with OBGYNs (I have two in family). Stances seem to differ based on their believes. 

There is a lot of wisdom in your last statement.  

 
hskrpwr13 said:
Thank you for sharing. You and your wife obviously went through something I don't wish for anyone.

I apologize for not being more clear that I'm commenting from a macro perspective and did not intend to opine on anyone's specific circumstances. Your circumstance is not where I would take some level of an anti-abortion stance. I've had conversations with OBGYNs (I have two in family). Stances seem to differ based on their believes. 

There is a lot of wisdom in your last statement.  
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The micro level has to be thought of on this topic or it shouldn’t even be discussed. Policy that makes it illegal to save the woman because things weren’t well thought out is due to thinking on a macro level at best, and not caring at worst. 

 
Moiraine said:
I would implore you to read more. The idea that these women are finding doctors who can fake that their lives are in danger is probably the worst part of your post, so I think you should do more research on women’s health during pregnancy, and the statistics. But if you think the doctors are lying I suppose you can ignore all of the numbers. 
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 Believe it or not, there are doctors that don't always "do the right thing."

Respectfully, are you trying to convince me that abortion should be legal in any circumstance at any time? If not, where am I coming off as a zero-abortion supporter?

 
hskrpwr13 said:
 Believe it or not, there are doctors that don't always "do the right thing."

Respectfully, are you trying to convince me that abortion should be legal in any circumstance at any time? If not, where am I coming off as a zero-abortion supporter?
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Nothing in my replies should lead you to that conclusion. But I’ve probably added to one that you haven’t read yet. The way you’re coming off is really ignorant about the health issues pregnancies can lead to for women and previously, and the reasons people have abortions. It’s pretty callous. 

 
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