The Democrat Utopia

I'm starting to think the last 15 minutes started because of some sort of misunderstanding....

Cheers  :cheers

We all agree that taxes aren't spent in the best way.

We all agree that more should be done with what we do pay.

We'd consider paying more if it were assured to be put to good use.

 
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I had responses to a lot of things but then I saw I was 4 pages behind (hard to keep up on the road), but I just wanted to throw one thing in

Someone said somebody like Jeff Bezos who worked their way up is the exception. It's not. According to Forbes, 69% of billionaires in America created their own fortunes. Now being 'self made' is subjective, but Forbes has a cool sliding scale of self-made-ness, from 1 to 10 depending on where billionaires started out. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/afontevecchia/2014/10/02/the-new-forbes-400-self-made-score-from-silver-spooners-to-boostrappers/#15e3e1612aff

It also shows that America is becoming far more meritocratic over time. 25 years ago, less than half billionaires worked their way into being rich. So, with all the valid critiques of capitalism and important calls for accountability and fairness on behalf of the rich and powerful, it's still good to keep perspective that we've been getting better and better and better. I don't have the numbers for it, but I would also imagine that America dramatically leads the way globally in giving potential and inspiring possibility to people who come from little or no means towards improving their lot in the world. We're a country founded on and perpetuated by an unrealistic fantasy for greatness, after all. Which is the best thing about us. And also sometimes the worst. There are other countries with less poverty, more equality, and so on - but a lot of the time those countries have traded a spirit of innovation and risk taking and progress for that security and safety. 

 
Landlord said:
I had responses to a lot of things but then I saw I was 4 pages behind (hard to keep up on the road), but I just wanted to throw one thing in

Someone said somebody like Jeff Bezos who worked their way up is the exception. It's not. According to Forbes, 69% of billionaires in America created their own fortunes. Now being 'self made' is subjective, but Forbes has a cool sliding scale of self-made-ness, from 1 to 10 depending on where billionaires started out. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/afontevecchia/2014/10/02/the-new-forbes-400-self-made-score-from-silver-spooners-to-boostrappers/#15e3e1612aff

It also shows that America is becoming far more meritocratic over time. 25 years ago, less than half billionaires worked their way into being rich. So, with all the valid critiques of capitalism and important calls for accountability and fairness on behalf of the rich and powerful, it's still good to keep perspective that we've been getting better and better and better. I don't have the numbers for it, but I would also imagine that America dramatically leads the way globally in giving potential and inspiring possibility to people who come from little or no means towards improving their lot in the world. We're a country founded on and perpetuated by an unrealistic fantasy for greatness, after all. Which is the best thing about us. And also sometimes the worst. There are other countries with less poverty, more equality, and so on - but a lot of the time those countries have traded a spirit of innovation and risk taking and progress for that security and safety. 
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It doesn't show America has become more meritocratic. It's showing that for a tiny part of the top quintile. There are 2,200 billionaires (edit: that's actually worldwide, there are only 585 in the U.S.). They aren't representative of their own quintile, let alone the whole country. There are 126 million households in the U.S. That means 1 quintile has 25 million people in it. The group you're saying shows America is more meritocratic over time makes up 0.0023% of its quintile. They aren't necessarily indicative of an overall trend.

If I had to guess, the reason the U.S. is more meritocratic for billionaires is because of the internet. It opened the doors for a different type of mind that had really good ideas at the right time and low start up costs.

800px-The_Great_Gatsby_Curve.png


Haven't been able to find one with a lot of countries. I'm sure the U.S. would be in the bottom left compared to a lot of countries that aren't on here, but there is a lot of room for improvement.

casselman-mobility-11.png


https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/inequality-is-killing-the-american-dream/

20140201_USC259_0.png


https://www.economist.com/united-states/2014/02/01/mobility-measured

Ideally we would have the below graph for multiple years:

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And on top of the above, the bottom 4 quintiles have a smaller proportion of wealth now than ever.

Percent+Share+of+Income+by+Income+Quintile,+1967-2012.png


change-in-real-income-by-quintile-united-states-1947-2010-001.jpg


 
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Moiraine said:
There are loads of people in the House who say stupid s#!t. I think it has to be in part because there are people who are scared that her ideas will cause them to lose profits and they want to make her look crazy, which they likely do every time anyone talks about environmental ideas. Lots of people could stand to lose a lot of $. 
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It's always about the money.

Every time you hear some complaint about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, just remember that Steve King has been a member of congress for more than 15 years, and only recently have Republicans shown even half-hearted concern about the things he says.

 






I've assumed they're coming to the wrong conclusion every time I see this stat that tax returns have decreased. They're purposely leaving out the full equation. (E.g. if tax rates are lower, that means you're probably also sending less extra to the government, so they're going to send less back in return). I don't want the Democrat candidates to lie about this stuff or be stupid about it, even though that's what Trump does. They shouldn't need to do that in order to beat him.

 
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I never understood people being excited about tax returns.  If you got a $4,000 return at the end of the year, it means that you were over taxed that whole time and didn't get to use that money they way you wanted all year.

I would rather have had the $4k to invest each month or something.  

 
StPaulHusker said:
I never understood people being excited about tax returns.  If you got a $4,000 return at the end of the year, it means that you were over taxed that whole time and didn't get to use that money they way you wanted all year.

I would rather have had the $4k to invest each month or something.  
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I would rather they never take it out of my check and I never send any to them. 

 
Hedley Lamarr said:
No i am suggesting NO income tax. Not no taxes. I am not opposed to a flat sales tax etc. I am also a big fan of paying down our national debt...things that I will never see happen 
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The flat tax both as income and as sales has been shown to not work because you'd shift the tax burden to those least able to pay for it. Countries have tried lots of tax systems, and if you look around the world you'll see that income tax is the preferred method - that isn't a coincidence.

 
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