The Democrat Utopia

[B.B. Hemingway]

Unrelated to the topic of athletic competition, is this how you sum up trans people? Pretending to be women? 

Not to be too brash, but if they are men and they’re partaking in activities designed and/or limited to women, and undergoing procedures to make themselves appear more like women, is that not what they’re doing?

And I should say, I’m all for them expressing themselves in anyway they desire. It’s when there’s an expectation of societal cooperation, and infringement on other people’s rights and/or societal norms that I start taking some issue with it.

I think you should be able to pick your gender.  I am all for it.  I don't care if they play sports and dominate.  

I think you should also be able to pick your age.  I pick...75 and want to start collecting my SS benefits.  

It wouldn’t be any less absurd.

 

[BigRedBuster]

If a woman wants to take testosterone to be more masculine, can they compete in women’s sports?  I don’t think so due to performance enhancing drug laws/rules. 
 

So, why should a person who has naturally had more testosterone than a normal woman all their life be able to decide they are going to compete with women?

 

[teachercd]

If a woman wants to take testosterone to be more masculine, can they compete in women’s sports?  I don’t think so due to performance enhancing drug laws/rules. 
 

So, why should a person who has naturally had more testosterone than a normal woman all their life be able to decide they are going to compete with women?

Because they are not a man anymore.  They no longer accept what society has said they have to be.

 

[funhusker]

If a woman wants to take testosterone to be more masculine, can they compete in women’s sports?  I don’t think so due to performance enhancing drug laws/rules. 
 

So, why should a person who has naturally had more testosterone than a normal woman all their life be able to decide they are going to compete with women?

It's my understanding that their testosterone has to be below a certain threshold before they can compete.  

I think a fair concern is athletes who've transitioned after puberty.  Even though their testosterone is reduced, they would still benefit from different body structures.

 

[B.B. Hemingway]

Because they are not a man anymore.  They no longer accept what society has said they have to be.

You spelled science wrong.

 

[BigRedBuster]

It's my understanding that their testosterone has to be below a certain threshold before they can compete.  

I think a fair concern is athletes who've transitioned after puberty.  Even though their testosterone is reduced, they would still benefit from different body structures.

Exactly. Their body has benefited from testosterone for some time. Some of that benefit is still going to be there. 

 

[JJ Husker]

I think the rare cases of a trans woman dominating her sport probably already is the extrapolation to the excess, at least in terms of usefulness to talk about within the realm of possibility.

So you see no problem with the trans swimmer Lia Thompson destroying the record book in women’s swimming? Odd. Seems like a very useful and possible place to begin discussing the issue. I guess the East German women olympians had s#!t figured out back in the day, And more recently Russian ice skaters. I’d propose that those cheaters were more “women” than trans athletes.

 

[teachercd]

So you see no problem with the trans swimmer Lia Thompson destroying the record book in women’s swimming? Odd. Seems like a very useful and possible place to begin discussing the issue. I guess the East German women olympians had s#!t figured out back in the day, And more recently Russian ice skaters. I’d propose that those cheaters were more “women” than trans athletes.

Like I said before, remember back 30 years ago no one thought a 16 year old boy would identify as a 12 year old boy just so he could toss 19 perfect games in the LLWS.  But it happened.  

 

[Lorewarn]

Not to be too brash, but if they are men and they’re partaking in activities designed and/or limited to women, and undergoing procedures to make themselves appear more like women, is that not what they’re doing?

Again, I asked this question not in the context of athletics, and with that still in mind - they don't identify as men. They very specifically identify as women, ask to be perceived as women, and live their life operating as women. So the "but if they are men..." part of your post is really what I'm asking - you think at the end of the day trans women are just men pretending to be women?

So you see no problem with the trans swimmer Lia Thompson destroying the record book in women’s swimming? Odd. Seems like a very useful and possible place to begin discussing the issue.

It's more odd that that's where you think I land:

I agree it's not a fair competition, but how do you exactly solve the problem? ... but it's messy business trying to find a way to codify a rule for this specific problem in a way that is fair and equitable.

Maybe you're right in regards to trans women. I don't know the answer and I even lean on the side of it not being fair for them to compete in women's leagues past a certain competitive level.

I know in my head I definitely default to a 'well, tough luck' problem solving solution in regards to the topic. But I also think trans people unduly suffer more than enough in our culture and so I'm actually very interested in and eager to hear good arguments from the other side. The logistical details don't seem to be in their favor, and the "has the world lost it's mind this is common sense!!!" and "trans women are women and it's bigoted to deny them anything!!!" emotional hot takes are equally as exhausting and boring. Creating trans-exclusive leagues is a theoretical option on paper, but doesn't seem to be a feasible one in reality, especially in regards to team sports due to a lot of factors.

Maybe one radical idea would be to eliminate gender entirely and just have leagues based off of skill alone.

 

[JJ Husker]

It's more odd that that's where you think I land:

I know in my head I definitely default to a 'well, tough luck' problem solving solution in regards to the topic. But I also think trans people unduly suffer more than enough in our culture and so I'm actually very interested in and eager to hear good arguments from the other side. The logistical details don't seem to be in their favor, and the "has the world lost it's mind this is common sense!!!" and "trans women are women and it's bigoted to deny them anything!!!" emotional hot takes are equally as exhausting and boring. Creating trans-exclusive leagues is a theoretical option on paper, but doesn't seem to be a feasible one in reality, especially in regards to team sports due to a lot of factors.

Maybe one radical idea would be to eliminate gender entirely and just have leagues based off of skill alone.

The thing is, this issue or problem or whatever you want to call it doesn’t require a radical idea. It just needs a bit of common sense with the beginning idea that we probably shouldn’t destroy women’s sports. I’m much more concerned with maintaining fairness and integrity for the majority of women and not so much with creating allowances for an extreme minority because of other hardships they may have endured in their life. I’m sorry that there is not an easy or good solution to allow them to compete as women as they want to.

I look at it as being similar to a kid who wants to play a less popular sport that doesn’t have  much opportunity in their area, like ice hockey in western Nebraska or bobsled in Jamaica. It just is what it is and it’s their responsibility to go out of their way to achieve it.

 

[Lorewarn]

I look at it as being similar to a kid who wants to play a less popular sport that doesn’t have  much opportunity in their area, like ice hockey in western Nebraska or bobsled in Jamaica. It just is what it is and it’s their responsibility to go out of their way to achieve it.

Curious about this because it could go both ways.

Let's say, in the case of Lia and NCAA swimming, starting next year all conferences publish their rules on transgender women competing in women's leagues. The Ivy League allows it, along with 1 or 2 other conferences, and the rest of the conferences only allow female-at-birth women to compete. The NCAA also gives a free transfer exemption to anyone on a team in a conference that allows it. 

Does that solve the issue of allowing trans women to compete in a women's league and also maintain an opportunity for fairness and integrity for the majority of women? Any that don't want to compete against her can "go out of their way to achieve it", and then nothing changes for the ones that don't mind.

 

[Enhance]

It just needs a bit of common sense with the beginning idea that we probably shouldn’t destroy women’s sports.

I agree with this but only with the minor caveat... positioning that it's less about avoiding the diminishment of female athletics, but more about doing what we can to maintain overall sporting equity and fairness. Statistically speaking, it does appear that the former-men-now-women who "dominate" in their new female competitors are outliers, but IMO, that doesn't mean it isn't worth being sensible about it. Sometimes, very specific or nuanced things happen in sports that draw immediate attention and rule changes.

And at the end of the day... there are some things in life that I don't think demand a resolute answer. Meaning, if there are trans people that clearly have some sort of measurable benefit over their competition because of their... former biology? (idk how to best say that)... then I don't have a problem telling them they can't compete. We all have to make and live with choices in life. It seems like people forget that there are other people, other athletes, impacted by this stuff. In a vivacious attempt to give trans people access to equal opportunity, a lot of people sure seem to want to forget about how other people could be impacted by it.

 

[JJ Husker]

Curious about this because it could go both ways.

Let's say, in the case of Lia and NCAA swimming, starting next year all conferences publish their rules on transgender women competing in women's leagues. The Ivy League allows it, along with 1 or 2 other conferences, and the rest of the conferences only allow female-at-birth women to compete. The NCAA also gives a free transfer exemption to anyone on a team in a conference that allows it. 

Does that solve the issue of allowing trans women to compete in a women's league and also maintain an opportunity for fairness and integrity for the majority of women? Any that don't want to compete against her can "go out of their way to achieve it", and then nothing changes for the ones that don't mind.

I think it odd that your solution as presented would require biological women (the majority) to seek life elsewhere to make allowance for the minority.

And to be clear, I find it frustrating and annoying that any conferences and the IOC are allowing trans women to compete as women. It’s madness and goes against all common sense. But maybe the Ivy league doing it is a good thing. They tend to suck at sports anyway. Gives the trans somewhere to compete without really affecting serious competition.

 

[Lorewarn]

I think it odd that your solution as presented would require biological women (the majority) to seek life elsewhere to make allowance for the minority.

And to be clear, I find it frustrating and annoying that any conferences and the IOC are allowing trans women to compete as women. It’s madness and goes against all common sense. But maybe the Ivy league doing it is a good thing. They tend to suck at sports anyway. Gives the trans somewhere to compete without really affecting serious competition.

That's why I brought it up as a thought experiment. A scenario would like that would present the majority with the majority of avenues and options to do things the way they'd like, while also preserving at least one viable lane for trans women to be able to compete at a high level.

And to be clear, the majority would not be seeking life elsewhere; the overwhelming majority in the form of all D1 swimmers in the nation would have already been elsewhere.

 

[BigRedBuster]

I agree with this but only with the minor caveat... positioning that it's less about avoiding the diminishment of female athletics, but more about doing what we can to maintain overall sporting equity and fairness. Statistically speaking, it does appear that the former-men-now-women who "dominate" in their new female competitors are outliers, but IMO, that doesn't mean it isn't worth being sensible about it. Sometimes, very specific or nuanced things happen in sports that draw immediate attention and rule changes.

And at the end of the day... there are some things in life that I don't think demand a resolute answer. Meaning, if there are trans people that clearly have some sort of measurable benefit over their competition because of their... former biology? (idk how to best say that)... then I don't have a problem telling them they can't compete. We all have to make and live with choices in life. It seems like people forget that there are other people, other athletes, impacted by this stuff. In a vivacious attempt to give trans people access to equal opportunity, a lot of people sure seem to want to forget about how other people could be impacted by it.

Are you saying that a trans woman could maybe be able to compete unless they are to good at the sport?  If so, I fail to see how that could work.  So, a sprinter starts competing, if they win races then....sorry, you can't compete anymore.  But, if you place 5th, that's fine.