The Democrat Utopia

[Dr. Strangelove]

I agree with taking popular positions, but the strongest the party has ever been is when they were progressive and farther to the left. The Dems continue to weaken over time as they become more corporate and try to take "middle" ground positions. I'd be fine with moderate positions, especially on the culture war nonsense the GOP keeps getting them to take the bait on. Moderate economic policy is mostly to the left of both parties these days though.

The Party was strong because the public hated Trump in 2018, and it just so happened that allowed people on the left to win.

All available evidence is that Progressive candidates are a net drag on our candidates, and moderate candidates do a lot better. The Party does NOT need to be more left, as the country does not want a more left wing candidate. Democrats have to pivot to the center if they want any hope to have future electoral success beyond Trump f#&%ing up.

You mean the side of the party that has an enthusiasm surplus rather than a massive enthusiasm gap? 

We can tread lightly on the transgender and Palestinian stuff that gets folks panties in a bunch, but the wealth and privilege disparity that's been the meat and potatoes of progressives forever is where the populism lives.  

They have an enthusiasm surplus because it's the most left wing part of the coalition, and the party has represented their interests since 2018. It's no different than the crazies who show up to Trump rallies.

All available analysis point towards Democrats needing to be moderate and not progressive if they want any hope of winning. It's not like the voters in Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Maine or Alaska are yearning for a progressive candidate to vote for. If we want to win over the voters our Party are losing at alarming rates, we need to moderate on positions. The only people who want the party to move to the left already vote for Democrats. The voters leaving the party do not want them.

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

If you enjoy losing elections and never controlling the Senate in your lifetime, then sure. We should prop the progressive left up and give them a bigger spot in the tent. 

If you enjoy losing elections to the most unlikeable Republicans in history, the charisma-free centrists Democrats put forward in an attempt to lure wayward Republicans have already proven a losing formula. 

Of course the answer lies somewhere in between, and it's in the core messaging that acknowledges economic realities and declines to run away from Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion.

You think making these people drawing big crowds feel less welcome in the party solves anything? 

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

I think it’s a great thing.  Get Crockett in there too and have at it.  

Careful what you wish for, chief. 

 

[Archy1221]

Careful what you wish for, chief. 

I don’t think I could wish for anything more in a political world.   Maybe a DeSantis Presidency I guess, but beyond that, gimme the Squad and Bernie Bros and that Crockett dips#!t all day long.  

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

The only people who want the party to move to the left already vote for Democrats. The voters leaving the party do not want them.

The voters leaving the party are the people who feel Democrats take them for granted. The Black, Hispanic, youth, and Labor folk who the DNC automatically put in their column -- believing they have nowhere else to go -- while they chase down big money donors and business elites with promises they aren't going to be too liberal in office. 

The dynamic I think you're discussing are the flashpoint issues like trans athletes, student loan forgiveness, DEI, and border security, three of which have been wildly overblown by Republicans, far more outrage and fundraising than the actual issue would warrant. Also, incredibly successful. So yeah, some careful prioritization is in order. 

But find the most centrist Dem out there, and the attack will be the same. Joe Biden was framed no differently than Bernie Sanders. It's a Venezuelan socialist nightmare regardless. 

But the grassroots economic and moral message in these Sanders/AOC tent shows is far more populist and resonant than the talking points the DNC wants to keep churning out. A lot can and will change in the next four years, but there is zero reason to pull Bernie and Alexandria off the road right now. This is exactly the energy that needs to be harnessed. Chuck Shumer looking disdainfully over his glasses isn't cutting it. 

And maybe, just maybe, those silly excesses of the marginalized far left will look will look a lot less dangerous than what the far right is currently executing. 

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

If you enjoy losing elections to the most unlikeable Republicans in history, the charisma-free centrists Democrats put forward in an attempt to lure wayward Republicans have already proven a losing formula. 

The goal isn't to win over Republicans, the goal is to win over voters that Republicans are pulling away from us. There is no evidences that says moderate democrats are losing to Republicans, the opposite is true. Moderate Democrats are the most over performing political group in the country. They perform better than Progressive candidates, better than MAGA Candidates and more importantly... better than Moderate Republican candidates. An excellent postmortem on elections can be found with David Shor's post election analysis.

We're losing ground with nearly every demographic other than college educated white voters. Those voters are going to vote for Democrats no matter what, we don't need to keep nominating progressive candidates to get them in the fold.

If we want to stop hemorrhaging black, Hispanic, and Asian voters, we have to nominate moderate candidates. 

 

[Ratt Mhule]

What they need to do is moderate, take popular positions, and show that they can effectively govern at the local level in states they control power. Pushing the party to the left is a disaster waiting to happen.

The first party to fix the issues of this country will be the party that wins the majority of the time. Housing is an issue and needs to be fixed. Healthcare is an issue that needs to be fixed. Education is an issue that needs to be fixed. Trump ran on lowering grocery prices and building homes on federal land this election. He also ran on universal healthcare in 2016. These are the moderate issues facing our young generations as the American dream is not as attainable as much as it was after WW2.  The middle class grew the most when progressive policies were implemented. Eisenhower, a republican, was more progressive than a lot of democrats today. 
 

The first party to complete FDRs vision is the party that will win the majority of the time. I wish that person was Donald Trump since he is president now and he ran on alot of that platform, especially in his first campaign, but hes a con artist so it wont be him.  I dont care if its Bernie Sanders, Rand Paul or anyone in between on either party. 

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

The first party to fix the issues of this country will be the party that wins the majority of the time. Housing is an issue and needs to be fixed. Healthcare is an issue that needs to be fixed. Education is an issue that needs to be fixed. Trump ran on lowering grocery prices and building homes on federal land this election. He also ran on universal healthcare in 2016. These are the moderate issues facing our young generations as the American dream is not as attainable as much as it was after WW2.  The middle class grew the most when progressive policies were implemented. Eisenhower, a republican, was more progressive than a lot of democrats today. 
 

The first party to complete FDRs vision is the party that will win the majority of the time. I wish that person was Donald Trump since he is president now and he ran on a alot of that platform, especially in his first campaign, but hes a con artist so it wont be him.  I dont care if its Bernie Sanders, Rand Paul or anyone in between on either party. 

I completely agree, and I think the Democrats are going to run on The Abundance Agenda as outlined by Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson, but with moderate candidates because they perform the best.

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

It's no different than the crazies who show up to Trump rallies.

Actually, it is. 

Have you listened to the actual speeches? Made a superficial judgement on the look of the crowd or their signage? 

Does the "Fight Oligarchy" theme strike you as off message? 

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

with moderate candidates because they perform the best.

Did you know this is a link to a New York Post article on how David Hogg is using his new DNC credentials to divert money to himself?

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

Actually, it is. 

Have you listened to the actual speeches? Made a superficial judgement on the look of the crowd or their signage? 

Does the "Fight Oligarchy" theme strike you as off message? 

My apologies, I'm not referring to the message. I'm referring to the passionate voters.

They're already in the fold. They do not represent voters that Democrats need to win over. 

 

[teachercd]

The Party was strong because the public hated Trump in 2018, and it just so happened that allowed people on the left to win.

All available evidence is that Progressive candidates are a net drag on our candidates, and moderate candidates do a lot better. The Party does NOT need to be more left, as the country does not want a more left wing candidate. Democrats have to pivot to the center if they want any hope to have future electoral success beyond Trump f#&%ing up.

They have an enthusiasm surplus because it's the most left wing part of the coalition, and the party has represented their interests since 2018. It's no different than the crazies who show up to Trump rallies.

All available analysis point towards Democrats needing to be moderate and not progressive if they want any hope of winning. It's not like the voters in Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Maine or Alaska are yearning for a progressive candidate to vote for. If we want to win over the voters our Party are losing at alarming rates, we need to moderate on positions. The only people who want the party to move to the left already vote for Democrats. The voters leaving the party do not want them.

I feel like you are the voice of reason with most of this stuff and it is always interesting to see people argue with you on certain topics when it is pretty clear what the end result would be

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

Did you know this is a link to a New York Post article on how David Hogg is using his new DNC credentials to divert money to himself?

I corrected that link (I think ).

Weird why my phone guessed the field of a link I posted about like a month ago.

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

My apologies, I'm not referring to the message. I'm referring to the passionate voters.

They're already in the fold. They do not represent voters that Democrats need to win over. 

I know it might seem counter-intuitive, and the lessons of the 2024 election might seem clear, but the traveling Sanders/AOC tent show is actually test driving the kind of narrative Democrats will need to reclaim the voters lost to the GOP's populist strategy. Especially as the GOP is hellbent on showing how little it cares about hard-working Americans once in office, including handing-off their jobs and retirement chests to the richest man on Earth. There's a lot in play right now that doesn't include drag queens or the stupidest protest signs at Columbia. 

Muzzling passionate voters sounds like a really bad idea in March of 2025. Armchair centrism isn't going to carry the day. Activism might. And better, more engaging candidates who will --- as always --- cover enough spectrum that there actually is a middle. 

 

[Lorewarn]

Call me crazy but I think it would be pretty awesome to nominate judges to the Supreme Court, pass laws, win at the state level to impact gerrymandering, and much more.

Personally, jettisoning any of the folks with actual bona fide passion & commitment towards any actual progressive goals, and being content with the best we can do being a status quo finger in the dam of corporatocracy/oligarchy/plutocracy just doesn't cut it for me. Sounds like your ideal for your party is that they just become the Republicans of a few decades ago for the sake of acquiring and holding onto power and riding out an eternity of underwhelming patches and band-aids to increasingly broken and eroded systems.

It's all hypothetical and fancy wishful thinking now regardless, but if the Dems are ever back in the driver's seat without any of the progressive crowd in the conversation, what's there to actually have any optimism towards beyond "well, we're gonna be less bad and promise to slow down the bad"? Who else but the folks you want to disappear is currently serving us first and foremost, rather than corporate and wealthy masters?

Tangential friendly reminder that Bernie polled significantly better against Trump than Hillary did.