The Democrat Utopia

Guy Chamberlin said:
But while I'd love to subscribe to the "let the GOP hang themselves" strategy, how do you see that working? Trump runs his performative ICE raids, establishes quasi-military operations under his direct control, sets a variety of unconstitutional precedents, then gets bored and declares victory 20 million illegal immigrants short of his campaign promise. The base will still love it and Dems are still left watching helplessly. It has yet to be seen whether Trump's personal vengeance against blue states will backfire, but if your concerns are electoral rather than moral it's hard to see that paying off. Republicans are most likely to turn on Trump when it hits them in the pocketbook. Even then they find others to blame. I'd love to think his voters will see Donald Trump's willful over-reaction to LA and Mussolini posturing during his military birthday parade and go "Ooops. He really is dangerous." But at this point would you bet on it? 
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So at what point does Trump initiate martial law, suspends elections, and declares himself to be leader for life. 

 
Guy Chamberlin said:
Not the same but plenty of shared DNA. Not just in America but pretty much any country that flexes a growing police state vibe. If it helps, think of it more as a civil rights demonstration from 1952, or a Vietnam protest from 1964. Still early in the game, but the protesters aren't wrong about either the injustice or the agenda. A certain percentage of them turn into rioters upon police confrontation. When this happens in foreign countries, especially Islamic theocracies, Americans typically celebrate the violent rebellion. Even Republicans. 

I'll be the first to admit the optics aren't good when things shift from protest to riot. Regardless of the media's politics, they're always attracted to the flames. Lawlessness in the streets helped get Richard Nixon elected.

But while I'd love to subscribe to the "let the GOP hang themselves" strategy, how do you see that working? Trump runs his performative ICE raids, establishes quasi-military operations under his direct control, sets a variety of unconstitutional precedents, then gets bored and declares victory 20 million illegal immigrants short of his campaign promise. The base will still love it and Dems are still left watching helplessly. It has yet to be seen whether Trump's personal vengeance against blue states will backfire, but if your concerns are electoral rather than moral it's hard to see that paying off. Republicans are most likely to turn on Trump when it hits them in the pocketbook. Even then they find others to blame. I'd love to think his voters will see Donald Trump's willful over-reaction to LA and Mussolini posturing during his military birthday parade and go "Ooops. He really is dangerous." But at this point would you bet on it? 

Also, the biggest criticism of Democrats at the moment is that they're big pussies. I don't see where doing nothing helps that reputation. 

Also, that quote about the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing based on some pretty horrific historical examples. There's probably a middle ground between setting cars on fire and quietly doom scrolling in the kitchen.
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Moral questions aside, the only data we have is that Trumps approval ratings on immigration were under water after he sent people to El Salvador. It was unpopular with the public and he lost in court.

Simultaneously, Republicans are currently a lot more popular than Democrats, which is why in skeptical that The Resistance 2.0 will work.  There's very little evidence that anybody outside of people who already vote for Democrats will be motivated by this, and there's a lot of evidence that the public will side with Trump on issues of "law and order".

Let Trump be unpopular and lose in court. Six months of unpopular immigration theatrics being cheerlead by the lowest dredges of society will slow Democrats to repair a deeply damaged image and win. 

 
teachercd said:
So it IS possible to protest, in peace and pray.  
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Yes,  MLKjr style.  1988 was a big year for abortion clinic protests.  A large group of us went to Wichita to protest at Killer Tiller's clinic(the name given by the more radical protesters). That was a "sit in' protest and many people were arrested for blocking entry.  Unfortunately, many years later - Dr Tiller was 'killed' / murdered by a radical 'pro-lifer' (how can you really be pro-life if you murder someone? You can't. )  Ironically it occurred on a Sunday morning at the church Tiller attended.  

 
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Guy Chamberlin said:
A certain percentage of them turn into rioters upon police confrontation.
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Which also happened under MLK's watch.

teachercd said:
So it IS possible to protest, in peace and pray.  
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More than possible, it's standard and common. Violent goons get all the coverage but make up the tiniest sliver of the pie chart of who's all out in the streets. 

When I was in downtown Atlanta after George Floyd, for every one person acting like a clown and trying to stir s#!t up there were dozens trying to get them to stop.

 
TGHusker said:
Yes,  MLKjr style.  1988 was a big year for abortion clinic protests.  A large group of us went to Wichita to protest at Killer Tiller's clinic(the name given by the more radical protesters). That was a "sit in' protest and many people were arrested for blocking entry.  Unfortunately, many years later - Dr Tiller was 'killed' / murdered by a radical 'pro-lifer' (how can you really be pro-life if you murder someone? You can't. )  Ironically it occurred on a Sunday morning at the church Tiller attended.  
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Yikes.

Lorewarn said:
Which also happened under MLK's watch.

More than possible, it's standard and common. Violent goons get all the coverage but make up the tiniest sliver of the pie chart of who's all out in the streets. 

When I was in downtown Atlanta after George Floyd, for every one person acting like a clown and trying to stir s#!t up there were dozens trying to get them to stop.
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Yeah, I know, that is my point.  

 
teachercd said:
For those of you that have been a part of a protest...did you do anything violent?  

Why or why not?

I know @TGHusker husker did some protesting of abortion clinics, did it ever turn violent?  Did you ever throw rocks at the clinic or the doctor(s)?  

I have thrown a rock at a house that was under construction...because I was a badass 12 year old.  

I have also thrown golf clubs, but that was in protest of a shots that clearly should have went straight but instead sliced. 
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You can put me in the apparently abnormal  group of never thrown rocks at police or burned cars in the streets during a protest group.  

 
TGHusker said:
So at what point does Trump initiate martial law, suspends elections, and declares himself to be leader for life. 
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I mean, he's essentially halfway there already, declaring elections invalid, calling in the Marines to a situation he's purposely inflating, and floating the idea of an unconstitutional third term. The military parade for his birthday is the money shot. 

Trump has often backed down when challenged. Here's hoping he stays performative and lazy. 

 
Guy Chamberlin said:
Not the same but plenty of shared DNA. Not just in America but pretty much any country that flexes a growing police state vibe. If it helps, think of it more as a civil rights demonstration from 1952, or a Vietnam protest from 1964. Still early in the game, but the protesters aren't wrong about either the injustice or the agenda. A certain percentage of them turn into rioters upon police confrontation. When this happens in foreign countries, especially Islamic theocracies, Americans typically celebrate the violent rebellion. Even Republicans. 

I'll be the first to admit the optics aren't good when things shift from protest to riot. Regardless of the media's politics, they're always attracted to the flames. Lawlessness in the streets helped get Richard Nixon elected.

But while I'd love to subscribe to the "let the GOP hang themselves" strategy, how do you see that working? Trump runs his performative ICE raids, establishes quasi-military operations under his direct control, sets a variety of unconstitutional precedents, then gets bored and declares victory 20 million illegal immigrants short of his campaign promise. The base will still love it and Dems are still left watching helplessly. It has yet to be seen whether Trump's personal vengeance against blue states will backfire, but if your concerns are electoral rather than moral it's hard to see that paying off. Republicans are most likely to turn on Trump when it hits them in the pocketbook. Even then they find others to blame. I'd love to think his voters will see Donald Trump's willful over-reaction to LA and Mussolini posturing during his military birthday parade and go "Ooops. He really is dangerous." But at this point would you bet on it? 

Also, the biggest criticism of Democrats at the moment is that they're big pussies. I don't see where doing nothing helps that reputation. 

Also, that quote about the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing based on some pretty horrific historical examples. There's probably a middle ground between setting cars on fire and quietly doom scrolling in the kitchen.
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Yeah there’s a middle ground. I don’t think anyone here is promoting to roll over and stop protesting. The thing that needs to stop is the violence, vandalism, attacking and interfering with police and ICE. Take away that stuff and Trump just looks foolish and overbearing for deploying NG and Marines.

If I’m sure of anything, that approach will play better, and be better, than giving Trump the spectacle he wants. It isn’t doing nothing or condoning what ICE is doing and it will allow him to hang himself with his own policies and enforcement. The thing that absolutely won’t work is to be seen opposing ICE apprehending actual criminals and those with lawful deportation orders, violence, vandalism and cars burning in the streets. I don’t think anybody except Trump and the chaos seekers want those things.

It’s too easy for the simpleminded to see 1 or 2 bad things and then apply those actions to all of the peaceful protesters. There is a good example of that right here on HB. Be for law and order the right way, not Trump’s way.

And while I’m on it, leave the Mexican flags at home. Seeing all those flags in the crowd is not helping their case with middle America at all. Stand against the illegal ICE gestapo bulls#!t, the lack of due process and the ignoring of the Posse Comitatus Act, not the lawful parts of what they are doing.

I haven’t paid much attention to Newsome over the years but I haven’t been impressed with him through this ordeal. IMO he should worry more about getting control of his cities and streets and less about positioning himself for higher political aspirations. All he’s done is lower himself to Trump’s level. Yeah he’s right that calling up the NG was his job but claiming he had things under control when he clearly didn’t and challenging them to arrest him…not a good look imo. If the dems played this smart they could come out looking much better but they’re screwing it up like usual.

 
JJ Husker said:
Yeah there’s a middle ground. I don’t think anyone here is promoting to roll over and stop protesting. The thing that needs to stop is the violence, vandalism, attacking and interfering with police and ICE. Take away that stuff and Trump just looks foolish and overbearing for deploying NG and Marines.

If I’m sure of anything, that approach will play better, and be better, than giving Trump the spectacle he wants. It isn’t doing nothing or condoning what ICE is doing and it will allow him to hang himself with his own policies and enforcement. The thing that absolutely won’t work is to be seen opposing ICE apprehending actual criminals and those with lawful deportation orders, violence, vandalism and cars burning in the streets. I don’t think anybody except Trump and the chaos seekers want those things.

It’s too easy for the simpleminded to see 1 or 2 bad things and then apply those actions to all of the peaceful protesters. There is a good example of that right here on HB. Be for law and order the right way, not Trump’s way.

And while I’m on it, leave the Mexican flags at home. Seeing all those flags in the crowd is not helping their case with middle America at all. Stand against the illegal ICE gestapo bulls#!t, the lack of due process and the ignoring of the Posse Comitatus Act, not the lawful parts of what they are doing.

I haven’t paid much attention to Newsome over the years but I haven’t been impressed with him through this ordeal. IMO he should worry more about getting control of his cities and streets and less about positioning himself for higher political aspirations. All he’s done is lower himself to Trump’s level. Yeah he’s right that calling up the NG was his job but claiming he had things under control when he clearly didn’t and challenging them to arrest him…not a good look imo. If the dems played this smart they could come out looking much better but they’re screwing it up like usual.
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Sane and rational post.

 
Archy1221 said:
In a Liberal masochistic fantasy land.  Which that place doesn’t actually exist 
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You've been saying these places don't actually exist for years now. Then it turns out they actually exist. Then it turns out they are even worse liberals expected. Then you defend Trump by saying he hasn't actually invaded Poland yet. 

I really wanted to agree with you about Project 2025 last fall, but you've been proven wrong about that, too. 

 
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