The Environment

[RedDenver]

The Future of Wind Turbine? No Blades

Really interesting stuff. Definitely early yet, but these seem worth looking into.

That's an interesting idea. I think noise or conversion efficiency will be the trouble with those.

Vertical axis wind turbines keep coming up as a possibility, but they are so inefficient that they make no sense.

 

[RedDenver]

Not a turbine, and pretty expensive as a fan.

 

[Oade]

I think wind turbines look cool. It's neat to see them out functioning, and it's neat to see the giant pieces going down the highway. They manufacture them somewhere in Iowa and I see them coming down I-80 all the time.

Sure, some people don't like the way they look, but most of the politicians who get upset about wind farms seem to have interests in coal. Not a coincidence.

I agree, they look cool, they are cool, but I would love for there to be a real initiative to replace these blades. There is enough evidence to have real pause and concern about birds, bats, and marine life to at least attempt something new before Wind Farms go any larger in scale than they already are -not that Trump is going to help that.

If the blade-free systems are as good as they seem, and can be improved upon, then they should be implemented going forward.

What blade-free system are you talking about? I'm aware of no wind-driven system that is even close to the 3-blade standard wind turbine.

Your right about most of them generating less energy, which I believe would improve in time. But just because one generator creates less energy, that doesn't mean an entire farm of generator couldn't create significantly more energy. Here's one example, but there are other prototypes that all have potential.

https://www.wired.com/2015/05/future-wind-turbines-no-blades/

Based on field testing, the Mini ultimately captures 30 percent less than conventional wind turbines, but that shortcoming is compensated by the fact that you can put double the Vortex turbines into the same space as a propeller turbine

30% less energy per turbine, but in theory, we could have double the number of turbines per square foot, and at lower cost of production, and 20% less the cost of maintenance.

There is also this company that uses more of a sail or dish design, they claim they can produce more energy than a tradition blade-turbine: http://www.saphonenergy.com/index.php

I can't find it now, but I've seen a similar dish-design that seemed possible to attach and replace the blades on current windmills as they stand, but because it was a dish and not a blade, and because of a "figure-8" sweeping motion, birds and bats were able to avoid it. I'm unsure of how its energy output compares however.

 

[Fru]

Not a turbine, and pretty expensive as a fan.

I'm aware. It was a joke.

 

[knapplc]

I think wind turbines look cool. It's neat to see them out functioning, and it's neat to see the giant pieces going down the highway. They manufacture them somewhere in Iowa and I see them coming down I-80 all the time.

Sure, some people don't like the way they look, but most of the politicians who get upset about wind farms seem to have interests in coal. Not a coincidence.

I agree, they look cool, they are cool, but I would love for there to be a real initiative to replace these blades. There is enough evidence to have real pause and concern about birds, bats, and marine life to at least attempt something new before Wind Farms go any larger in scale than they already are -not that Trump is going to help that.

If the blade-free systems are as good as they seem, and can be improved upon, then they should be implemented going forward.

Absolutely. I'm not sure about the environmental impact of those blades, but if there's something better that is less damaging to the environment, I'm all for it. Anything is better than fossil fuels dumping greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere.

The blades are estimated to kill between 200,000 and 375,000 birds per year, and an equal number of bats - in the US alone. I think the number is estimated at 700,000 birds world wide per year. Furthermore, Wind-farms are exempt from the same penalties you and I are subject to for killing bald eagles - there are restrictions put in place if said companies can't curtail the killings within a 5 year period though..... Also the bigger and under researched issue in my eyes, is of how the actual posts/towers effect ocean currents, whale & fishing migrations, coral developments, and hearing-damage during construction. -- A floating buoy-system would be ideal if possible.

In regards to Trumps tweet, I hope it means he intends to undo part of the law Obama signed that protects wind-farms when they kill bald eagles. They should be held accountable no different from if you or I had a private wind-generator at home and killed a bald eagle.

However, without knowing more about the in's and outs of the law than I do, I hope that's the only thing he changes about Obama's wind-farm policy.

How many bald eagles have been killed by wind turbines? I didn't know about this.

I wonder if a bald eagle flies into an office building and dies, is the company held accountable for that?

EDIT - did some research. Turns out, wind turbines don't kill many raptors (bald eagles, other hunting birds), and they kill far less than buildings, power lines, etc. It's odd, then, that we would focus on some legislation that Obama signed. Especially since no administration, ever, has prosecuted a wind turbine for killing a bird, but every administration dating back to the 1970s has prosecuted the oil & gas industry, for example, for killing wildlife.

Fewer Bald eagles are killed by wind turbines than by buildings every year

http://www.livescience.com/41644-wind-energy-threat-to-birds-overblown.html

Bald eagle killed by truck

http://bangordailynews.com/2016/03/15/news/midcoast/bald-eagle-killed-after-flying-into-tractor-trailer/

Bald eagle dies in storm drain

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-orlando-eagle-dead-20161115-story.html

Habitat protection saved Bald eagles from extinction

https://www.fws.gov/midwest/Eagle/recovery/biologue.html

 

[zoogs]

The House passed a resolution, 228-194, that would repeal the "Stream Protection Rule," a measure issued recently that barred mining companies from putting any of their waste in local waterways.

And how does this help us?

It doesn't. I'm not sure why Republicans hate the environment so much. I would've thought they'd do everything in their power to protect God's creation.

They don't hate the environment.

I can't find the exact article anymore, but a conservative criticism I read recently called the GOP corporatist rather than free market. Very, very accurate diagnosis IMO.

 

[RedDenver]

I can't find the exact article anymore, but a conservative criticism I read recently called the GOP corporatist rather than free market. Very, very accurate diagnosis IMO.

That's a criticism I'd level at both parties.

 

[Fru]

The House passed a resolution, 228-194, that would repeal the "Stream Protection Rule," a measure issued recently that barred mining companies from putting any of their waste in local waterways.

And how does this help us?

It doesn't. I'm not sure why Republicans hate the environment so much. I would've thought they'd do everything in their power to protect God's creation.

They don't hate the environment.

I can't find the exact article anymore, but a conservative criticism I read recently called the GOP corporatist rather than free market. Very, very accurate diagnosis IMO.

You're right, they don't "hate" the environment. They simply don't care about it or how destroying it can affect others.

 

[zoogs]

Fru, I agree.

That's a criticism I'd level at both parties.

I think the record and the platforms would show it's substantially more true of one than another. Not that the world was perfect before, far from it. But GOP efforts such as these were long held in abeyance by somebody. The parties cannot be reduced to being indistinguishable on this score. If they are, these are the election outcomes that are possible.

Overall, though, I agree. America is overall dominated by corporatism. Its system hardly permits anything else.

 

[Oade]

I think wind turbines look cool. It's neat to see them out functioning, and it's neat to see the giant pieces going down the highway. They manufacture them somewhere in Iowa and I see them coming down I-80 all the time.

Sure, some people don't like the way they look, but most of the politicians who get upset about wind farms seem to have interests in coal. Not a coincidence.

I agree, they look cool, they are cool, but I would love for there to be a real initiative to replace these blades. There is enough evidence to have real pause and concern about birds, bats, and marine life to at least attempt something new before Wind Farms go any larger in scale than they already are -not that Trump is going to help that.

If the blade-free systems are as good as they seem, and can be improved upon, then they should be implemented going forward.

Absolutely. I'm not sure about the environmental impact of those blades, but if there's something better that is less damaging to the environment, I'm all for it. Anything is better than fossil fuels dumping greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere.

The blades are estimated to kill between 200,000 and 375,000 birds per year, and an equal number of bats - in the US alone. I think the number is estimated at 700,000 birds world wide per year. Furthermore, Wind-farms are exempt from the same penalties you and I are subject to for killing bald eagles - there are restrictions put in place if said companies can't curtail the killings within a 5 year period though..... Also the bigger and under researched issue in my eyes, is of how the actual posts/towers effect ocean currents, whale & fishing migrations, coral developments, and hearing-damage during construction. -- A floating buoy-system would be ideal if possible.

In regards to Trumps tweet, I hope it means he intends to undo part of the law Obama signed that protects wind-farms when they kill bald eagles. They should be held accountable no different from if you or I had a private wind-generator at home and killed a bald eagle.

However, without knowing more about the in's and outs of the law than I do, I hope that's the only thing he changes about Obama's wind-farm policy.

How many bald eagles have been killed by wind turbines? I didn't know about this.

I wonder if a bald eagle flies into an office building and dies, is the company held accountable for that?

EDIT - did some research. Turns out, wind turbines don't kill many raptors (bald eagles, other hunting birds), and they kill far less than buildings, power lines, etc. It's odd, then, that we would focus on some legislation that Obama signed. Especially since no administration, ever, has prosecuted a wind turbine for killing a bird, but every administration dating back to the 1970s has prosecuted the oil & gas industry, for example, for killing wildlife.

Fewer Bald eagles are killed by wind turbines than by buildings every year

http://www.livescience.com/41644-wind-energy-threat-to-birds-overblown.html

Bald eagle killed by truck

http://bangordailynews.com/2016/03/15/news/midcoast/bald-eagle-killed-after-flying-into-tractor-trailer/

Bald eagle dies in storm drain

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-orlando-eagle-dead-20161115-story.html

Habitat protection saved Bald eagles from extinction

https://www.fws.gov/midwest/Eagle/recovery/biologue.html

IDK what the number is exactly. Nobody is counting and categorizing each and every individual dead bird at this point.

You're right, it's odd. I would not put this at the top of my to-do list if I was Trump, but its definitely something that needs addressed if wind-farms are going to continue to grow.

There is really no logic in not policing wind-farms (or airlines) in regards to animal rights. There should have been a stronger initiative to improve these windmills sooner imo.

I didn't realize this until this morning, but one article I read suggested that the current wind-mills disrupt radio and tv signals... I always wondered why the radio-reception sucked whenever I'm driving through Iowa on I-80.

 

[RedDenver]

I think wind turbines look cool. It's neat to see them out functioning, and it's neat to see the giant pieces going down the highway. They manufacture them somewhere in Iowa and I see them coming down I-80 all the time.

Sure, some people don't like the way they look, but most of the politicians who get upset about wind farms seem to have interests in coal. Not a coincidence.

I agree, they look cool, they are cool, but I would love for there to be a real initiative to replace these blades. There is enough evidence to have real pause and concern about birds, bats, and marine life to at least attempt something new before Wind Farms go any larger in scale than they already are -not that Trump is going to help that.

If the blade-free systems are as good as they seem, and can be improved upon, then they should be implemented going forward.

Absolutely. I'm not sure about the environmental impact of those blades, but if there's something better that is less damaging to the environment, I'm all for it. Anything is better than fossil fuels dumping greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere.

The blades are estimated to kill between 200,000 and 375,000 birds per year, and an equal number of bats - in the US alone. I think the number is estimated at 700,000 birds world wide per year. Furthermore, Wind-farms are exempt from the same penalties you and I are subject to for killing bald eagles - there are restrictions put in place if said companies can't curtail the killings within a 5 year period though..... Also the bigger and under researched issue in my eyes, is of how the actual posts/towers effect ocean currents, whale & fishing migrations, coral developments, and hearing-damage during construction. -- A floating buoy-system would be ideal if possible.

In regards to Trumps tweet, I hope it means he intends to undo part of the law Obama signed that protects wind-farms when they kill bald eagles. They should be held accountable no different from if you or I had a private wind-generator at home and killed a bald eagle.

However, without knowing more about the in's and outs of the law than I do, I hope that's the only thing he changes about Obama's wind-farm policy.

How many bald eagles have been killed by wind turbines? I didn't know about this.

I wonder if a bald eagle flies into an office building and dies, is the company held accountable for that?

EDIT - did some research. Turns out, wind turbines don't kill many raptors (bald eagles, other hunting birds), and they kill far less than buildings, power lines, etc. It's odd, then, that we would focus on some legislation that Obama signed. Especially since no administration, ever, has prosecuted a wind turbine for killing a bird, but every administration dating back to the 1970s has prosecuted the oil & gas industry, for example, for killing wildlife.

Fewer Bald eagles are killed by wind turbines than by buildings every year

http://www.livescience.com/41644-wind-energy-threat-to-birds-overblown.html

Bald eagle killed by truck

http://bangordailynews.com/2016/03/15/news/midcoast/bald-eagle-killed-after-flying-into-tractor-trailer/

Bald eagle dies in storm drain

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-orlando-eagle-dead-20161115-story.html

Habitat protection saved Bald eagles from extinction

https://www.fws.gov/midwest/Eagle/recovery/biologue.html

You're right, I would not put this at the top of my to-do list if I was Trump, but its definitely something that needs addressed if wind-farms are going to continue to grow.

There is really no logic in not policing wind-farms in regards to animal rights. There should have been a stronger initiative to improve these windmills sooner imo.

I didn't realize this until this morning, but one article I read suggested that the current wind-mills disrupt radio and tv signals... I always wondered why the radio-reception while driving through Iowa on I-80.

The latest Lazard numbers show that utility scale PV is essentially the same cost as wind now. So if wind turbines have more environmentally impacts, then we should probably move away from wind and towards PV as new energy generation.

 

[knapplc]

IDK what the number is exactly. Nobody is counting and categorizing each and every individual dead bird at this point.

You're right, it's odd. I would not put this at the top of my to-do list if I was Trump, but its definitely something that needs addressed if wind-farms are going to continue to grow.

There is really no logic in not policing wind-farms (or airlines) in regards to animal rights. There should have been a stronger initiative to improve these windmills sooner imo.

I didn't realize this until this morning, but one article I read suggested that the current wind-mills disrupt radio and tv signals... I always wondered why the radio-reception sucked whenever I'm driving through Iowa on I-80.

There's a noise issue with them as well. There are two windmills NE of Lincoln and you can drive right up to them. They are quite loud when you're under them. I would imagine living within half a mile of them, you could hear them. Maybe that's no different than living next to the interstate, though. People do that and I can't figure out why.

Regardless, I do agree with you that we should make them as safe & efficient as possible. Wind energy is great, but it can/should be improved.

 

[commando]

another famous Don chasing windmills.....Don Quixote isn't alone in his quest anymore.

 

[ColoNoCoHusker]

Solar vs wind is difficult. I think the solution ultimately has to include widespread residential & distributed green energy rather than relying almost entirely on massive farms. I have 2 residential wind turbines installed by a Boulder company and they produce more energy refund than my neighbors' full roof solar installs. Part of the reason is my turbines are going 8-18 hours per day, 330+ days per year. They are always at optimal position and the install cost was close to half that of full roof solar. We routinely get winds between 55-80 mph and microbursts up to 120 mph. Not every location is so blessed.

The design is a vertical cylinder similar to the one on right below.

As far as wildlife, it can be much better but all the numbers I have seen are lower than referenced above. Definitely less compared to wildlife impact of other infrastructure. I know NREL tracks this info as part of their testing and I asked a friend that's an engineer at the Boulder test farm (http://www.nrel.gov/nwtc/) if he can share the data. If he is able to provide it, I will post it.

 

[Oade]

Solar vs wind is difficult. I think the solution ultimately has to include widespread residential & distributed green energy rather than relying almost entirely on massive farms. I have 2 residential wind turbines installed by a Boulder company and they produce more energy refund than my neighbors' full roof solar installs. Part of the reason is my turbines are going 8-18 hours per day, 330+ days per year. They are always at optimal position and the install cost was close to half that of full roof solar. We routinely get winds between 55-80 mph and microbursts up to 120 mph. Not every location is so blessed.

The design is a vertical cylinder similar to the one on right below.

As far as wildlife, it can be much better but all the numbers I have seen are lower than referenced above. Definitely less compared to wildlife impact of other infrastructure. I know NREL tracks this info as part of their testing and I asked a friend that's an engineer at the Boulder test farm (http://www.nrel.gov/nwtc/) if he can share the data. If he is able to provide it, I will post it.

I agree that residential and local use are essential to long-term success.... Can you imagine a small solar panel on the top of every city street-light pole in the US? Just add it to the design of any new poles, it would be a game changer.

The newer UV and IR panels are awesome, plus I've also heard of some that can work off of water & air-humidity in addition to UV and IR. Which would mean energy could be produced at respectable levels during prolonged cloud-cover and during a rain storms.