The Environment

[Danny Bateman]

Kind of tangential, but I really like Rep Justin Amash's recent explanation of being ideological vs. being partisan. Amash is a pretty strict Libertarian. While I don't agree with many points of his ideology, I at least appreciate his candor and frankly, his spine. He's one of the very few members of Congress willing to buck his party's leadership in a principled, common sense way, as opposed to the Freedom Caucus's "burn it all down" way.

 

[ZRod]

Kind of tangential, but I really like Rep Justin Amash's recent explanation of being ideological vs. being partisan. Amash is a pretty strict Libertarian. While I don't agree with many points of his ideology, I at least appreciate his candor and frankly, his spine. He's one of the very few members of Congress willing to buck his party's leadership in a principled, common sense way, as opposed to the Freedom Caucus's "burn it all down" way.

https://twitter.com/liveandletsigh/status/870117741168144384

https://twitter.com/justinamash/status/870127223986159616

That's a damn good quote!

 

[knapplc]

Frankly, it's pretty clear your team (Republicans/Trump/conservatives) are being attacked and you're reacting poorly. It's a bad look.

Why do you and others do this? What about anything Jaws said lead you to believe he was a Trump/GOP supporter? You can be critical of anti Trump/GOP material and still not support the former. We should all know by now when you paint with that broad of a brush it derails any meaningful conversation.

This is the line you find objectionable in this thread.

I'd like to think I could hold you to a higher standard. That's all.

It's been said over and over again that people don't want to post in here because of exactly what you just did. You had excellent counters to the things Jaws brought up, but you couldn't just leave it there. You had to throw a broad label on it to get rid of any shade gray. He had legit concerns thay he brought up, that never meant he supported the GOP in anyway.

I regret not being able to live up to your arbitrary and unevenly enforced standard.

 

[NM11046]

Maybe it was this woman from Fox News. She says Trump called her this morning to discuss the climate deal, taxes, etc.

Could it be any more obvious he's a figurehead?

Vox with a takedown asserting Trump quite honestly has no idea about anything he's doing at any given time.

An incredibly telling thing Trump said at today’s Paris event wasn’t about climate at all

Perhaps the most telling thing President Trump said in his rambling justification of his decision to pull out of the Paris accords on climate change wasn’t about climate change at all. It was, rather, about the speedy advance of his administration’s tax bill in the United States Congress.



The thing about this is there is, literally, no tax bill.

• No tax bill has been introduced to the US House of Representatives.
• No tax bill has been introduced to the US Senate.
• The White House has not released a tax plan that is detailed enough for experts to assess its economic or fiscal impact.

Indeed, just a week ago, Trump’s Office of Management and Budget Director Mick Mulvaney explained that what most experts saw as a $2 trillion accounting mistake in the White House budget was actually deliberate.

“It is and was too early to make any assumptions about what the final tax bill looks like," he told members of the House Budget Committee, and that’s why the proposal does not assume any fiscal cost of the tax legislation.

Trump has no idea what he’s talking about

This is, to me, the scariest aspect of Trump’s approach to issues like the Paris accords.

I have to agree wt Morning Joe here - Bannon is the president behind the president. Is Trump a policy wonk - we all know that he isn't. His knowledge of policy is skin deep if that. The primary candidates exposed him for that, yet mesmerized (by a few envy evoking words Make America Great Again), voters nominated him. His policy ideas are evolving because he only had to really learn and thing about policy during the last 2 years. So, he gets up to speak and it sounds shallow. However, the real policy wonk is directing his actions - Steve Bannon.

https://www.axios.com/scarborough-steve-bannon-is-the-real-president-2430129219.html

There was a terrifying special on PBS looking at Bannon's evolution from college to today. He is a scary, scary man.

 

[ZRod]

Frankly, it's pretty clear your team (Republicans/Trump/conservatives) are being attacked and you're reacting poorly. It's a bad look.

Why do you and others do this? What about anything Jaws said lead you to believe he was a Trump/GOP supporter? You can be critical of anti Trump/GOP material and still not support the former. We should all know by now when you paint with that broad of a brush it derails any meaningful conversation.

This is the line you find objectionable in this thread.

I'd like to think I could hold you to a higher standard. That's all.It's been said over and over again that people don't want to post in here because of exactly what you just did. You had excellent counters to the things Jaws brought up, but you couldn't just leave it there. You had to throw a broad label on it to get rid of any shade gray. He had legit concerns thay he brought up, that never meant he supported the GOP in anyway.

I regret not being able to live up to your arbitrary and unevenly enforced standard.

I'm pretty sure you've objected when people associate you as a left wing Obama loving socialist liberal, no?

 

[zoogs]

knapp made a comment about tribalism in politics. I actually don't know if jaws is a particularly good example of this, but it's astute observation about politics generally.

I actually missed this part of their conversation somehow and hopped in right at the point where Jaws seemed to be saying he wouldn't be considered on the Republican team. This seems quite at odds with almost everything I've seen him post -- and to be clear, I don't have a problem (beyond disagreement) with people who are Republican. What kind of gets me is Republicans, in this present atmosphere of brand damage, trying to dissociate themselves from the party banner by saying so. But you got to walk the walk, you know?

I know knapp loathes labels. However, I think his stance on the GOP is quite clear.

 

[knapplc]

I get ZRod's objection. I'll accept my mea culpa and endeavor to be better.

Fair?

 

[ZRod]

I get ZRod's objection. I'll accept my mea culpa and endeavor to be better.

Fair?

More than.
It's something we're all guilty of. I know I've done it too. I just think we don't need to stifle discussion like that. It was a good discussion that was being had.

 

[knapplc]

I disagree. I thought it was disingenuous, like so many of these allegedly neutral protestations which seem ever to only defend one point of view.

Conservatives aren't posting here not because they're being met with obstruction (we all are, regardless of political lean) but because the ideology they defend is becoming indefensible.

Politically detached people fare poorly in this forum. They aren't the only ones called out, they're just the ones that can't defend their stance in the face of facts. You've called people out yourself, which is why I initially resented the finger pointing at me.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Trump pulled out of the Paris Agreement and saved us a fortune that wouldn't have made any difference in the grand scheme of things. Thank you Mr. President, making America great again one day at a time.

 

[Danny Bateman]

Rusty, serious question.

What would it take to make America great again, in your estimation? What needs to happen?

Bonus points if you can do it without using bumper sticker slogans Trump laces his speeches with.

 

[Danny Bateman]

I had to share this, because this might be the least self-aware quote we've heard in the era of Trump yet, and there have been some doozies:

Rage-addled Oompa Loompa asked when the world will start laughing at the US. It already is.

“At what point does America get demeaned?” he asked his rapt audience in the Rose Garden on Thursday, as his unusually golden comb-over glinted in the afternoon sun. “At what point do they start laughing at us as a country? … We don’t want other leaders and other countries laughing at us any more. And they won’t be. They won’t be.”

No they won’t. They won’t dare to laugh at an American president who takes a motorized golf cart through the streets of Sicily while his fellow leaders walk like pedestrians. They won’t laugh at a president whose handshake is a form of mortal combat where only one hand survives with its dignity intact. They won’t laugh at a president who thinks that saving the world is just another way to destroy the US.

 

[ZRod]

I disagree. I thought it was disingenuous, like so many of these allegedly neutral protestations which seem ever to only defend one point of view.

Conservatives aren't posting here not because they're being met with obstruction (we all are, regardless of political lean) but because the ideology they defend is becoming indefensible.

Politically detached people fare poorly in this forum. They aren't the only ones called out, they're just the ones that can't defend their stance in the face of facts. You've called people out yourself, which is why I initially resented the finger pointing at me.

Then if I'm being hypocritical I expect you and everyone else here to set me straight. Fare is fare.

 

[RedDenver]

Trump pulled out of the Paris Agreement and saved us a fortune that wouldn't have made any difference in the grand scheme of things. Thank you Mr. President, making America great again one day at a time.

Both sides need to realize that the Paris Agreement was VOLUNTARY. It's a toothless agreement. The US got to set it's own goals that it wants to meet. So there's no fortunate to be saved or lost. In fact, not much of anything has changed with regards to the environment. Here's a good article from MIT about the pros and cons of the Paris Agreement.

The part that makes the US look stupid is foreign policy. Trump could have stayed in the agreement and then set whatever goals he wanted. Instead the US looks ridiculous on the world stage and opens the door for another nation to take the lead in global affairs.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Trump pulled out of the Paris Agreement and saved us a fortune that wouldn't have made any difference in the grand scheme of things. Thank you Mr. President, making America great again one day at a time.

Both sides need to realize that the Paris Agreement was VOLUNTARY. It's a toothless agreement. The US got to set it's own goals that it wants to meet. So there's no fortunate to be saved or lost. In fact, not much of anything has changed with regards to the environment. Here's a good article from MIT about the pros and cons of the Paris Agreement.

The part that makes the US look stupid is foreign policy. Trump could have stayed in the agreement and then set whatever goals he wanted. Instead the US looks ridiculous on the world stage and opens the door for another nation to take the lead in global affairs.

It would have been a waste of money, but Trump pulled out. Sure he could have stayed in and set "goals" destined to fail, why bother. Get out and focus on something that may actually get accomplished.