The Environment

Fru, I feel like the word Nebfanatic used is a better fit - indifference. Very cynical indifference. Very cynical indifference. People opposed to environmental regulations would rather squeeze extra juice out of the economy for their own gain (e.g, to get re-elected or to collect profits) even at the expense of our planet because they won't be around to see the effects. It may screw over our children and grandchildren, but no matter, we'll just kick the can and let somebody deal with it down the road.

Likewise with healthcare- who cares if it hurts the poor? It's more fiscally responsible. This will take the oppressive yoke off the job creators and unburden them, that they may proceed to trickle down their vast wealth (and pay for our re-election).

Specific to coal miners, it's important to point out that the guys at the top profiteering from increased coal output aren't suffering the deleterious health effects that come for the worker in the mine.

 
It occurs to me also that what we're really just trying to point out here that a lot of less wealthy people (yes, including coal miners) don't have a rational basis for opposing climate action (part of which involves using public resources to help ease the transition that is inevitable), and yet they've been conditioned to do so.

It's less of an actual question of "why?" and more a statement. And there's no going around it: real, concerted climate action is going to impose a cost. And we're looking directly at the wealthier to shoulder the burden. It's natural to hit resistance from them. Credit to those who see it as the right thing.

 
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IA State Husker said:
Why do coal miner like Trump? - he lied to them, and told them what they wanted to hear in order get their vote.

Why do coal miners hate environmental regulations? - They have been shamelessly manipulated by propaganda and rhetoric (paid for by wealthy special interest groups) to support policies that actually are against their best interests.
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Nonsense! That's implausible. I refuse to believe it.

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dudeguyy said:
Fru, I feel like the word Nebfanatic used is a better fit - indifference. Very cynical indifference. Very cynical indifference. People opposed to environmental regulations would rather squeeze extra juice out of the economy for their own gain (e.g, to get re-elected or to collect profits) even at the expense of our planet because they won't be around to see the effects. It may screw over our children and grandchildren, but no matter, we'll just kick the can and let somebody deal with it down the road.

Likewise with healthcare- who cares if it hurts the poor? It's more fiscally responsible. This will take the oppressive yoke off the job creators and unburden them, that they may proceed to trickle down their vast wealth (and pay for our re-election).

Specific to coal miners, it's important to point out that the guys at the top profiteering from increased coal output aren't suffering the deleterious health effects that come for the worker in the mine.
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Completely agree. I think that term sums it up perfectly.

 
zoogs said:
It occurs to me also that what we're really just trying to point out here that a lot of less wealthy people (yes, including coal miners) don't have a rational basis for opposing climate action (part of which involves using public resources to help ease the transition that is inevitable), and yet they've been conditioned to do so.

It's less of an actual question of "why?" and more a statement. And there's no going around it: real, concerted climate action is going to impose a cost. And we're looking directly at the wealthier to shoulder the burden. It's natural to hit resistance. Credit to those who see it as the right thing.
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This seems to overlap a lot with the cultural problem plaguing Democrats as they try to regain power from the GOP.

I may post another thread about this. I feel like it could be an interesting discussion.

 
Of course coal miners care if they have a job. And of course they care about coal coming back or at least staying viable - they've likely grown up in economic situations where they and/or their entire community is centered around the profits from coal. But they're being lied to. Those lost jobs are never coming back. The jobs that still exist aren't going to last. Coal is dying as a needed resource, and even if it isn't, the industry is becoming more and more automated without need for laborers.

That doesn't put them in the same boat as CEOs of coal companies, or of coal lobbyists, though. The miners are mostly just regular folk trying to provide for their family working an honest job. The execs and the lobbyists are people that are deliberately lying in order to make huge profits based off of the exploitation of the miners. A lot of these climate change denying lobbyists came from big tobacco after they lost the battle about disclaiming that it can give you cancer.

Coal miners have trouble going to sleep at night wondering how they'll provide for their families. Coal millionaires somehow sleep soundly at night knowing that they're robbing the environment, their workers, and in some more dramatic sense, all of mankind, for some profit.

 
It doesn't take those evil CEOs and lobbyists to make coal miners think they are losing their jobs because of environmental regulations.

Smart Energy Solutions: Decrease Coal Use

When we burn coal for electricity, we place our health,
our environment, and our planet at risk.

Why we must quit coal

FAQ

There are human fingerprints on carbon overload. When humans burn coal, oil and gas (fossil fuels) to generate electricity or drive our cars, carbon dioxide is released into the atmosphere, where it traps heat. A carbon molecule that comes from fossil fuels and deforestation is “lighter” than the combined signal of those from other sources. As scientists measure the “weight” of carbon in the atmosphere over time they see a clear increase in the lighter molecules from fossil fuel and deforestation sources that correspond closely to the known trend in emissions.
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Now, these people are being lied to by Trump and his ilk about coal jobs coming back. NG usage has been developed and it's now cheaper. A few jobs may come back. But, the majority aren't.

These people don't look past the fact that they used to have a job that fed their families. Now they don't and they have constantly seen headlines similar to what I linked above.

For the life of me, I have no clue why someone would want to be a coal miner. I would think if they had any way of getting a different job, they would jump on it. But, they don't. I remember seeing a news story that interviewed ex coal miners. They are passionate about wanting to get back to mining coal.

Now, we can all sit around and talk about those evil boogie men that make 7 figure salaries. But, the fact is, they aren't the ones that overwhelmingly voted Trump in.

 
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This is a perplexing defense. Lobbyists aren't responsible for politically co-opting coal miners against their interests, but climate activists who correctly point to coal's problems are?

Coal is bad. This makes it easy to manipulate people against their interests. Again, I think we all understand how and why this happens.

This makes those manipulators pretty evil, though, right? Why have we made the jump from defending wealthier people now to defending CEOs and lobbyists?

 
zoogs said:
This is a perplexing defense. Lobbyists aren't responsible for politically co-opting coal miners against their interests, but climate activists who correctly point to coal's problems are?

Coal is bad. This makes it easy to manipulate people against their interests. Again, I think we all understand how and why this happens.

This makes those manipulators pretty evil, though, right? Why have we made the jump from defending wealthier people now to defending CEOs and lobbyists?
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You are totally missing my point. People trying to educate the world that coal is a dirty industry and we need to move away from it, aren't bad. They are doing what should be done.

However, the comment I was responding to was claiming that evil CEOs and lobbiests are lying to coal miners claiming that it's environmental regulations that are causing them to lose their jobs.

Question:

True or false.....there is a global push to decrease coal usage that in turn causes these people to lose their jobs.

PS....I'm not defending coal mining CEOs that push to fight environmental regulations against their industry.

 
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Landlord of Memorial Stadium said:
Coal miners have trouble going to sleep at night wondering how they'll provide for their families. Coal millionaires somehow sleep soundly at night knowing that they're robbing the environment, their workers, and in some more dramatic sense, all of mankind, for some profit.
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Oh...and I forgot this little gem.

Coal miners are sitting home unemployed. I agree....they are losing sleep at night trying to figure out how to feed their families. They are in a very difficult situation after losing their jobs. That is a bad situation to be in.

But....spare me the victimhood here. Again....these people love mining coal. That is what they want to do for a job. While the coal industry was going down and the were losing their jobs, the oil industry in other parts of the country was booming. They could have gone to Williston, SD and made probably more money than they were at the bottom of a mining shaft. Did they go? No, they sat there begging for the coal jobs to come back.

 
"I don't see why people feel bad for these uneducated folks who didn't choose to completely uproot or leave their families to work halfway across the country and leave their tight-knit communities that might have been all they've ever known while they were waiting for the jobs that everyone was promising them would return"

 
Landlord of Memorial Stadium said:
"I don't see why people feel bad for these uneducated folks who didn't choose to completely uproot or leave their families to work halfway across the country and leave their tight-knit communities that might have been all they've ever known while they were waiting for the jobs that everyone was promising them would return"
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OK...stay and wait for coal mining jobs to come back.

Trump is going to do it while he MAGA!!!

And...oh by the way.....I didn't say I didn't feel sorry for them. I specifically said they are in a very tough situations losing their jobs and I fully understand they are losing sleep trying to figure out how to feed their families.

 
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What's the difference between between the coal miners and the mine owners (assuming they are rich as per the above discussion)? The owners can close the mine tomorrow and retire without them or their families going homeless, losing healthcare, or wondering where their next meal is coming from. They could even go on to invest in wind, solar, electric cars, Google, Toyota, etc. or start a new business. The miners cannot do that.

It's a question of opportunity and responsibility. That doesn't make the rich mine owners "evil" or "bad", but their choice to keep mining coal is not one of survival.

 
Let's back up here a minute.

This entire discussion started with my response to this:

Fru said:
Yeah, I get why the 1% have utter disdain for the planet and all of it's inhabitants.

It's the GOPer that earns $35k a year that goes along with it is what I don't understand.
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I said this post was BS because 1%ers don't have an "Utter disdain for the planet and all it's inhabitants." any more than someone making 35,000.

Immediately, someone started shooting back claiming all I do is defend billionaires.

Since then, the author of the above post has come out and said it was full of hyperbole and has agreed that other terminology was more appropriate.

In no way shape or form have I said there aren't total a$$ holes who are billionaires that oppose environmental regulations that affect their income. My only point in all of this is that people making 35,000 have the same attitudes about things that affect their income and ability to put food on the table.

All the talk about if the billionaire is going to make more money than them or if they can close the mine down and retire comfortably while the miner is stuck unemployed and can't feed his family.....really has nothing to do with my comments. Of COURSE that's the reality of rich people compared to poor people. That has always been that way and it always will be that way.

That has nothing to do with if one group has more disdain for the planet and it's inhabitants than the other.

 
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