Weird Time for Christians

[BigRedBuster]

In my opinion..

The act of abortion is a moral issue.

Keeping it legal or making it illegal is the political issue

@BlitzFirst this is a short and sweet way to put it.

For instance, I'm pro-life.  However, I don't vote solely on that because I don't believe it should be a political issue.  I don't get caught up in all the political crap on the issue.  I would prefer to donate and work through organizations that help prevent the need for abortions and also help women either before or after an abortion deal with the issue.

 

[30-50 Feral Hogs]

You cherry picked one thing out of and constructed a strawman you could attack instead of the overall argument.  I'm not going to research to defend a strawman argument.

Or you can't find one organized religion website to back up your point

 

[BigRedBuster]

You cherry picked one thing out of and constructed a strawman you could attack instead of the overall argument.  I'm not going to research to defend a strawman argument.

no, you pretty much stated "facts" that you couldn't back up and people questioned you on it.....and you can't back it up.

 

[BigRedBuster]

But nobody in their right mind would ever say that politics are free of religion nor that religion is free of politics (in this country).  A church may not tell you how to vote...but the minute they found out you voted in support of something they deem morally reprehensible...you'd definitely get some kind of push back.  Example here would be Catholics for Choice...a number of the bishops associated with this movement are publicly denounced and the Roman Catholic church  states that it causes harm to Catholics and undermines the Church's authority.  That's a pretty big rejection if you ask me.

In the 1990's a bishop in Lincoln said that it would be automatic excommunication if someone was found to be in the above organization.

That's a huge push toward forcing people align their beliefs toward how the church thinks and not how their conscience makes them feel.  So do these people vote in line with church teachings or are they allowed to believe what they want to believe and vote accordingly?  Can they express their beliefs without fear of repercussions?

So....no official Catholic church websites that proclaim you are going to be ex communicated if you vote for a Democrat?

Ok...I'll take this as you're back tracking on your previous statements.

Not really, I stated it was my opinion early on.  Go back and read.

Dude....you literally said that all...excuse me....90% of all churches are political and tell you how to vote.

That simply is not true.  That is stating a fact that is not true.

Cathloics are known to be prolife...

That doesn't make the Catholic church political.  

 

[Landlord]

Cathloics are known to be prolife...it doesn't require me to go out and look at a website to know...it's a core tenant of the belief.

Evangelicals are known to be against gay marriage...once again, this isn't something that isn't known.

Catholic individuals and the Catholic Church are not the same thing.

Evangelical people and Evangelicalism are not the same thing. 

You've changed the meaning of your claim like a half dozen times already.

 

[Landlord]

Nice ambiguity logical fallacy Landlord.

I'm not the one with the logical fallacy or the ambiguity. Look at how all over the map you are. 

Not really certain any good churches exist...all of them involve themselves with politics which is anti-christian.

You start off talking about churches. As actual recognized institutions, presumably in the United States. These CHURCHES (not individual people) are all bad and involve themselves with politics, allegedly.

But I'd say it's well over 90% just considering gay marriage and abortion alone. 

Okay so now it's not all, but 90% of institutional churches are bad, because they are involved with politics.

Oh no, it's a yes.  Taking into account that many churches involve themselves in pro life and gay marriage issues and are encouraged nationwide to go the polls to vote accordingly.  It's not a small movement...it's a major one across multiple denominations.

Still talking about churches, but now you bring in a claim that probably 90% of these churches are telling their congregants and parishioners and members to vote a certain way. Well, you've had plenty of people in here tell you that no such thing has ever happened to them in their faith tradition.

All sarcasm aside, I was using statistics that say 64% of America is either Catholic or Evangelical...and I know both of these encourage their membership to be pro-life and vote accordingly.

Now you're starting to talk about church institutions and individuals, but again make the claim that evangelical churches and catholic churches are telling their members how to vote. That's not true in....a lot of people's wide ranging experience.

I'm not talking about your personal opinion on the matter nor that of local congregations.  I'm talking about the policies of the denomination and the 'official' stance which is where churches that align under the organization are supposed to take their cues from.

Okay so now you're not talking about churches as far as like First Pres Lincoln or Christ Community Church in Omaha but you're talking about THE Catholic church and THE lutheran church, etc. So the claim now is that, for example, the catholic church is telling people how to vote. People are asking you to provide evidence of that, and you haven't.

It's true that both Catholics and Evangelicals take stances against abortion as an issue. 

This doesn't matter, because top down church institutions aren't the same thing as individual members.

Once again, I'm not talking about your personal opinion nor that of your local congregation.  I'm speaking of the stance by organizations at the top (Catholic Church, Evangelical church) and how churches that align themselves with those should fall in line and listen.

Okay, can we get an official stance of the catholic church? And while you're at it, evidence that THE catholic church is telling catholics how to vote? You've made both of these claims a bunch and the majority disagree with them and don't believe you.

I already know you can't give an official stance for evangelicalism because evangelicalism is decentralized and not run by a top organization. 

 

[30-50 Feral Hogs]

I've been a Catholic for quite a while now.  I've attended many masses in many churches.  I have witnessed 1 priest give a homily in which he tried to direct people how to vote.  He went on and on about abortion and gay marriage.  He's now in prison for child molestation.

 

[Landlord]

My official stance is that politics and religion would be better completely separate. 

That's a fine stance to have. You haven't once in this whole interaction said that, or just that. You've said all sorts of things around it thematically but you've been very unclear.

Churches host voting registration drives, they open their doors as voting sites on elections, they host patriotic events, and encourage patriotism. 

Some do. Many do not, and as time goes on, less and less.

I gave examples of Evangelicals and Catholics because they make up almost 65% of Christians in the US and they both align on prolife and against gay marriage

According to pewresearch, 70% of Catholics, 66% of mainline protestants, and 36% of evangelical protestants think homosexuality should be accepted. Also according to pewresearch, 56% of catholics, 60% of mainline protestants, and 20% of evangelical protestants think abortion should be legal in most/all cases.

So a slice of two denominations/traditions, which are a slice of the christian religion, which is a slice of the total population, somewhat align. But also 90% of churches are bad. 

??

Churches encourage their members to vote according to the consciences and religion is specifically a conscience trainer and former.

Everybody encourages people to vote according to their conscience. 

 

[BigRedBuster]

Oh I see...because I got called out on generalizing and clarified/changed my argument...or because I committed a fallacy, it means I'm completely wrong eh?

No, there isn't anyone in this entire thread that has said NO churches do these things.  The problem was when you first said "all" then went to "90%" and wouldn't back down from that.

Churches encourage their members to vote according to the consciences and religion is specifically a conscience trainer and former.

SOME churches do this.  If you would have indicated you have a problem with the churches that do do this while not trying to say that ALL...excuse me...90% of churches do this.  I don't think anyone would have had a problem with your post.

The problem is that you threw out a huge over generalization of all Churches that simply is not justified and you couldn't back that up.

 

[BigRedBuster]

:facepalm:

All churches do this..

Are you still on 'all churches' again?  Man, I already clarified this two or three times over and you're still moving the goalposts back to that?

 

[Apsu]

In my opinion..

The act of abortion is a moral issue.

Keeping it legal or making it illegal is the political issue

That summarizes the situation well.
Some people see peace, healthcare and the environment as moral issues too.
Should a tax exempt religious organization be allowed to politically organize from the pulpit?

 

[Apsu]

Good question -  most social issues have a political solution( govt solution) and a non-political solution.  As private citizens and as private organizations we can do what we can to work on the issue. Sometimes govt intervention is needed - ok most times govt has to be involved - that is where the debate comes in on what is the best solution. I think we demonize 'the other side' too much when talking about solutions (regardless of who the other side is). Most people want to solve the problem they just have different ways of getting there.  Most times the best solution is a mix from both sides but if we are constantly yelling over each other and making every social issue a 'red meat' political issue, it doesn't get solved - which often fits in wt the plan of the partisan leaders of these parties.  Having divisive social issues is how parties get power and stay in power.  We, as private citizens and organizations, should refuse to be pawns in that kind of power trap.  Thus, I'm not beholding to the GOP just because I'm pro-life.

Hot button social issues like abortion, immigration and guns keep the bases of both parties at each others throats. making compromise impossible.

 

[30-50 Feral Hogs]

Should a tax exempt religious organization be allowed to politically organize from the pulpit?

I guess they should be allowed to if for profit businesses can cite religious freedom when they deny service to people

 

[Apsu]

I guess they should be allowed to if for profit businesses can cite religious freedom when they deny service to people

Based on my reading of the Constitution, I would say that both are wrong.

 

[30-50 Feral Hogs]

Based on my reading of the Constitution, I would say that both are wrong.

You would be correct.  Yet they are both happening.