Weird Time for Christians

Moiraine said:
Yes.
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Then why the need to rephrase what I said?  Much more eloquently though, I might add  :)

Citing the Bible for reasoning behind policy is stupid, no matter the party.  Citing evidence of community improvement is solid reasoning in policy making.

Edit: what I'm trying to say: a Democrat citing the Bible as he/she votes for Medicare For All is no different than a Republican citing the Bible for banning abortions.  Religion that is open to interpretation isn't a sound basis for governing. 

 
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funhusker said:
Then why the need to rephrase what I said?  Much more eloquently though, I might add  :)

Citing the Bible for reasoning behind policy is stupid, no matter the party.  Citing evidence of community improvement is solid reasoning in policy making.

Edit: what I'm trying to say: a Democrat citing the Bible as he/she votes for Medicare For All is no different than a Republican citing the Bible for banning abortions.  Religion that is open to interpretation isn't a sound basis for governing. 
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I don't feel that's what I did, as having it be an argument from Democrats would be so rare as to not be worth mentioning.

 
funhusker said:
I've heard the argument in reverse also.  Why do "dems" want the government out of marriage but involved in charity?
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Whoever you've heard that argument from is making a strawman. Ask Dems and Repubs if there should be no legal marriage, and it'll be the right that complains about that scenario.

 
BlitzFirst said:
My 2 cents on evangelicals:

It's called being a hypocrite.  Believing in a socialist Jesus and Jesus' policies but refusing to have your politics and real life match that example provided in detail for you.  in my opinion, they have removed the Christ from Christians.  They shouldn't be called that anymore...they don't represent him
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As a Christian, this is my biggest problem with American Christians today.  I want to point out, it's not all of them.  But, a significant number of people who claim to be Christian don't have the views of society and their fellow neighbors that Jesus would have.

Maybe they should just be called Ians.  Since, you're taking Christ out Christians, all that's left is Ians.

 
BlitzFirst said:
It's very interesting...this take on things and thanks for the link as it was an interesting read.  My comments on this type of evangelical voter below:

According to the Bible, a sin is a sin and the law is complete...violating ANY of it means violating all (James 2:8-13).  So you'd think that they wouldn't want to elect someone who is a bigot, a pu$$y grabber, blood guilty, a sexual predator, a liar, a covetous lech, etc. etc.     

Yet here we are...they want to elect him because of pro-life (or one or two other evangelical type issue)...something the government shouldn't even be involved in nor should regular people be involved in...because it has nothing to do with their lives.  If someone wants to kill someone else, that is their choice and each will be accountable to his or her deed according to the Bible.  The same holds true for abortion.  So why do evangelicals once again push so hard toward controlling choice for others when it's not their right to do so?  Matthew 7 says to not judge lest ye be judged...yet here those same evangelicals are peering downward toward all the wayward pro-choicers.  They want to steal the gift of free will that god supposedly gave to all humans...in a way, they are trying to replace gods judgement and steal gods gifts to all to appease their own shame and guilt.

Yet another example of them being hypocrites again with a dash of narcissism (thinking you need to correct anyone other than yourself) and a shake of delusions of grandeur (being able to remove gifts of god like free will, judging others).
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@BlitzFirst here is my breakdown of your reply to my reply:  By the way, the video you posted was very interesting.

Your words in black my words in red:

It's very interesting...this take on things and thanks for the link as it was an interesting read. 

TG: You are welcome

According to the Bible, a sin is a sin and the law is complete...violating ANY of it means violating all (James 2:8-13).  So you'd think that they wouldn't want to elect someone who is a bigot, a pu$$y grabber, blood guilty, a sexual predator, a liar, a covetous lech, etc. etc.     

TG: I agree.    But one could argue as many wrongfully do,  playing that pesky devil's advocate here, that "we don't elect a national pastor/priest/rabbi we elect a president.  If said president is a moral failure, so be it, as long as he passes the right laws and appoints the right judges.  Character Does Not Matter - which as you know is the exact opposite of what similar people were saying about Bill Clinton.

Character does matter and should matter because personal character plays out in public actions and policy ( or even in our day to day life at work, school, etc).   So then it comes down to the fact that no candidate is perfect - we have to evaluate them by both policy and character.  I was never for Trump during the 2016 primaries and I had hoped Pence would jump off the ship with the 'pu$$y grabbiing video came out after the GOP convention that year.   In Trump's case, we all knew his character and we've now seen how that character has played out in policy, in how he administrates, and how his example affects a nation.   Electing someone who is "perfect" in character but absent of any ability to govern isn't the answer either.  However, Trump is void of both character and ability.  Again, this is why single issue voting is wrong in the long term. 

Yet here we are...they want to elect him because of pro-life (or one or two other evangelical type issue)...something the government shouldn't even be involved in nor should regular people be involved in...because it has nothing to do with their lives.  If someone wants to kill someone else, that is their choice and each will be accountable to his or her deed according to the Bible.  The same holds true for abortion.  So why do evangelicals once again push so hard toward controlling choice for others when it's not their right to do so?  Matthew 7 says to not judge lest ye be judged...yet here those same evangelicals are peering downward toward all the wayward pro-choicers. 

TG: Your argument here is too simplistic - I say that not to offend but to state that this is not a simple issue.  We are also told, Biblically but also as a social moral context,   to be a voice for the voiceless, to come to the aid of those who cannot help themselves.  As a pro-life Christian, we believe that to be true of the unborn as well as the born.   We are also  to consider the well being of the person who is about to do harm -Using your argument,  I think if you knew someone who was about to go and kill someone, you would try to stop them and ignore your own words above.  You would not want them to be the victim of their own wrong behavior/choice - regardless of their free will to do so.   In the same way, many pro-life people and organizations are involved in helping the mother of that unwanted or unplanned pregnancy.  They see the woman very much as the victim as well.   Yes, there are those ugly people, as in most movements, who shout 'bably killer' etc but that is not the heart of the pro-life movement.  Almost all laws are about 'controlling choice' for the greater good.  Matt 7 speaks of judging others from the perspective of announcing eternal damnation on someone. While some may be judgemental, most true believers realize that we are all wayward, we are all in need of grace & mercy whether we are pro-life or pro-choice. 

They want to steal the gift of free will that god supposedly gave to all humans...in a way, they are trying to replace gods judgement and steal gods gifts to all to appease their own shame and guilt.

TG: For Christians of all stripes (evangelical, Catholic, mainline protestant) & for all people- only one can take care of the shame and guilt - Jesus Christ took care of that issue on the cross and with His resurrection.  Judgement, guilt and shame have been replaced with mercy, grace and peace.   There is no need to judge anyone and God's judgement is no longer an issue.  

Yet another example of them being hypocrites again with a dash of narcissism (thinking you need to correct anyone other than yourself) and a shake of delusions of grandeur (being able to remove gifts of god like free will, judging others).

TG: as I said before, we are all (even you Blitz and even Me ) are hypocrites in our own way.  We all have planks to take out of our own eyes.  This is not to excuse but to encourage - lets remove the planks and maybe we'll see 'the other side' for the good they are trying to bring to the table.  I have mentioned elsewhere, If the Dem Party could open up their tent  a bit more to pro-lifers and find that sweet place between pro-life and pro-choice, I think evangelicals and others would run to the party - as the Dems are more pro-life in other life issues than what the GOP has shown.

OK I'll get off of my box now :boxosoap

 
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Many evangelicals hold zealously to the belief Trump is a divine man of God, sent here BY God, to save Christianity in the U.S.

Meanwhile, soon-to-be owner of a Presidential Medal of Freedom Lou Holtz swears Biden is Catholic in name only.

:dunno


 
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I see conservatives claiming liberals are unhinged by Trump because he uses rough language and "hurts their feelings."

fwiw, it's pretty much the same language we heard from Bo Pelini supporters.

Anyway, I think Trump's character flaws are just the low-hanging fruit. Paying off porn stars, playing golf while the world burns, idiotic Twitter rants at D-list celebrities, even the racist dog whistles. A Trump supporter and a seemingly tolerant evangelical can claim the man is flawed, but his "movement" is redemptive for the greater Christian cause.

So what is that cause?  You can go ahead and remove Trump from the conversation, because he's just the latest delivery system for the GOP agenda. Banging Stormy Daniels and mocking John McCain don't affect my life at all. But cutting taxes for the wealthy, sabotaging Social Security, deregulating everything in sight, blowing up the deficit while pretending to be small government, and mocking anything remotely environmental very much impacts my life and moreso, the lives of my children.

I don't need to know how evangelicals justify the personal amorality of Donald Trump. I need to know how they feel about the policies the GOP has been advancing with Trump's rubber stamp. What is it in the teachings of Jesus Christ that makes them want to actively undermine the poor, the sick, and the Other in order to benefit the wealthy? Why do the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many, other than being the opposite of socialism?  As others already observed, for many evangelicals it's probably Roe v Wade first, every other virtue a distant second. For others, it's American Jesus and the yearning to live in the whitewashed America depicted in Thomas Kinkade paintings. 

Just read an interesting article that calls out Black Americans for their loyalty to a church that asks them for money every Sunday, and promises they'll get their  reward when they're dead. 

Weird time for Christians. 

 
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