What would make people feel less ostracized from P&R?

[Atbone95]

I'm being serious too - that is a great, reputable TED talk. Regardless of leaning, it's a good video.

I feel like I've been kicked around for my pro-Trump views on here, which is why I stopped posting about them.

Is this what they describe in that TED Talk?

I know this is going to sound pretty sh**ty, but I am so happy that I get to come here and read all of the comical statements by the very grumpy Democrats (or just general non-Trump supporters). Why? Because, I'm making what I assume to be a safe assumption that you live here in Nebraska. And, because you live here in Nebraska, regardless of how loudly you scream and wring your hands and cry, your opinion won't be reflected in the final result. That would be true, unless you live in Omaha in which case the Democrats might swing the district like 2008, but polling is showing that is quite unlikely to happen this year.

So you can whine and moan, and go on and on about how Trump is a racist, sexist, sexual assault monster and a dictator and a demagogue and whatever other label you want to throw on there. You can deny the Clinton corruption, and defy common knowledge (or attempt to spend 2-3 minutes learning why) that the Wikileaks are genuine and have been verified using tracing technology to be authentic. At the end of the day, I can get my laughs while the state stays true to its Republican roots.

Is that sh**ty of me to say? Probably. But that is our political system. YOLO.

What do I see in Trump? I see a smart businessman (and if you hit me with "but he bankrupted", I might come through the computer and slap you - the man is worth more than any of us could ever dream to be). I see a leader who's whole life, his entire success, has centered around being a figurehead at the top who just hires the smartest people money can buy around him, and let's them run free. I honestly see a candidate who isn't steeped in filth, who at least gives America a shot to feel like some semblance of our own opinion matter - not the "private opinions" that are common in Washington.

Thank God, I've been pretty lonely in this forum over the last two days. Nice to see NUance, a fresh wind in this dark, desolate place.

https://www.facebook.com/outlawmorgan/videos/1185760541518837/?hc_ref=NEWSFEED

Jumped getting into his car in the parking lot. F&$@k your one-sided rhetoric.

If you think you've been "kicked around," how would you describe these quotes?

Ohhhhhhh Knapp. This is why I left.

I'm sure you had quite a few gems (directed at me) you could have quoted when you scrolled back and found those, but those wouldn't support your argument. Understandable.

You left because people can quote your own words back to you? OK.

You're welcome to look for "gems." You can click the links on the quotes and go to each conversation and see what "gems" I directed at you. Near as I can recall, I haven't been too concerned with your opinions in this forum, based mostly on the aggressive tone of those posts. It wasn't an auspicious beginning here. But you're free to look. All my posts are in there.

No, I'm good. Not worth my time.

Very ironic you made this thread, though. Saw Teach's status update and thought "There's no f'ing way". Even proved me right the second I got in here, when I made a polite, constructive post. But here we are, I suppose.

 

[knapplc]

Did I ever say if you continue X then Y is going to happen? No, I was simply pointing out something that I noticed and I also noticed that it is my opinion you are leaving out names so you don't get in trouble for a personal attack. I've bolded the section I'm getting at with this conversation. I believe you are phrasing it in a way to avoid a personal attack because you've been a mod and you know what goes on. This isn't rocket science. It's what it is and there have been no threats made that I can see that will fit you trying to point the finger of blame back on me here. I mean I could beat around the bush, but that's useless to me and I don't have time for it.

You can look through this forum and find hundreds and hundreds of instances where I've put the names of people I'm speaking to, including you, in my post. You're accusing me of trying to skirt the rules. I'm not, and I never have. I am operating within the rules of this forum. Yes, I have been a Mod and yes, I do know what goes on. I'm glad you haven't forgotten that.

You didn't like me asking you to remember a conversation we had, in the republican utopia thread, about Trump and posters being attacked or piled on when they showed support of him before the elections in another thread. You wanted proof, links, pictures, whatever.

http://www.huskerboard.com/index.php?/topic/82305-the-republican-utopia/

And I answered that in that thread. Did you read this?

"Blame" is a harsh word. What are we going to do, haul BRI up in front of a tribunal and shine spotlights in his face?

The biggest thing I want those who voted for Trump to do is... not do it again. That's the end of the recrimination. We're not naming names, we're not blaming you. Just don't vote for that kind of candidate ever again. It looks like, from the last couple of days, BRI has swung around. I'm super happy with that.

I don't super appreciate being called out like that, especially when I wasn't part of that conversation, but what I've written above is the extent of that.

As you can see there are several folks that don't think they can speak freely here. I can only guess there are plenty of others who won't respond. There are several posters that have created that environment through their constant questioning and barrage of posts in response to something a "Trump supporter" posted. To me it seems like the response from some folks around here is to "overwhelm them with information" so that way they trip up somewhere and then "we've got them!" Of course that's THEIR problem for feeling that way.................not the problem of the folks who may have created that environment by not being open to listening and understand where folks are coming from.

See, this is a copout. You're blaming the entire environment of this forum on people you disagree with.

Everyone can speak freely here. Nobody is being stopped. Look at this very thread, all the people telling me I'm wrong. I'm being "jumped on" to use the words Trump supporters use. Am I being stopped from posting here?

 

[knapplc]

Even proved me right the second I got in here, when I made a polite, constructive post. But here we are, I suppose.

Most people on the board (in here) seem incapable (most times) of doing this:

 

[teachercd]

This has been the best P&R thread ever

 

[Mierin]

What makes people feel ostracized from P&R is their own insecurities and desire to not get into arguments. Some people hate arguing and get emotional about it.

 

[Danny Bateman]

Wow. This thread has all kinds of tangents. Three or four conversations going on at once, which is interesting to see to say the least. Kind of makes it had for a slightly-ADD fella like myself to keep up.

Anyway, I may be one of the ones considered whiny left on here. I spend more time than is probably wise in P&R, but for my money there is some pretty decent conversation to be had. I do post a lot, but a lot of that is just me posting articles and Tweets to try to keep people up on the news and get their thoughts. If I'm presenting an overly slanted version of reality or posting a bit too much, I can ease up on the gas!

I think I can distill some of the trepidations people have down into some bullet points that might help P&R reach out to a wider audience:

• Don't attack a strawman. It's easy to do, it can make you feel very intelligent, but really you're just looking to spring a pre-loaded argument on someone. Probably very similar to what is said in that TED talk AtBone posted. I'm of the opinion that a huge part of why talking politics can be so frustrating is that most folks enter a conversation sure that their views are right. Thus, a lot of folks aren't looking to have a genuine conversation as much as they are looking to prove the other person wrong and themselves correct. This leads to taking on strawmen and other logically fallacious techniques that make some people feel like they're being broadbrushed and made to support something they don't.
• Don't transfer frustrations derived from others onto people you chat with here. The "Trump Supporter Hypocrisy" thread would be a good example of this. Moiraine was rightly frustrated with being inundated with social media nonsense from people operating on pure fandom in lieu of logic and facts. Shoot, I know plenty of people like this myself - from BOTH sides of the aisle.The point is that most people are here in good faith - don't take your frustrations with any certain voting bloc or group out on them. If you must attack something, attack the group you're actually mad at.
• Post your real thoughts and don't be afraid to be wrong. As others have said, be prepared to back up an argument if you put one forth. If you've got a solid argument, you've got nothing to worry about even if you get challenged by someone once or twice or more times than that. Keep trying to make your point, if you believe you're correct. But be open to the counterpoints others give you. Don't just get mad if you find your logic was flawed and you can no longer assert the point you made earlier. As Landlord pointed out, sometimes we can grow a tremendous amount by being shown that we were wrong in something, or by deciding to think about it in a different way.

Just thought those would help. My apologies for the wordy nature of those points.

 

[Danny Bateman]

This has been the best P&R thread ever

You're the buttercream frosting on top of the cake, Teach.

 

[knapplc]

most folks enter a conversation sure that their views are right

Really good post, but I want to focus on this. Who doesn't do this?

Does anyone enter a conversation thinking, "The opinion I have formulated based on my knowledge & experience is wrong. I hope to be proven wrong as I engage in this conversation."

 

[zoogs]

most folks enter a conversation sure that their views are right

Really good post, but I want to focus on this. Who doesn't do this?

Does anyone enter a conversation thinking, "The opinion I have formulated based on my knowledge & experience is wrong. I hope to be proven wrong as I engage in this conversation."

The alternative I think is "I don't know much about this topic, and I'm curious to learn." There's room for that!

 

[TAKODA]

Sorry I am late to this party.

El Diaco & Teach.

My sincere apologies if misrepresented you in any way.

I did bring each of your names within because of what you stated in the status updates, to which it irriated me that either one of you or both of you did not feel good about posting in the P & R thread because of how you were misrepresented or how people made wrong assumptions about your point of view. You guys are solid posters who have a distinct outlook as well as the abilities to defend why you see things as you do. Losing you from the P & R forums would be HB's loss, IMO.

BRI, I made reference to your status comment, not to cause a rift between you and Knapp, but because as a Mod, you in fact have seen or felt similar to what JJ and Teach relayed. My apologies to y9ou as well.

I think I must be getting numb to it or don't give a crap any more because it doesn't matter to me anymore, if I am outnumbered 20 to 1.

I think/feel my perspective or opinion is just as valid as the next guys. Interesting note, that could be made, if you go to the imigration thread, note where all the +1 went. Does that indicate a slant or do I just suck at making points that resonate, in comparison to those who chose to support a different view.

The most important thing in this post for me was to insure JJ, Teach and BRI, knew I only mentioned them because each of them need to feel welcome to share their view points without being hammered for them having a differently life perspective.

The truth is, 84husker should have been named head coach as he knows football!

Jeezus, just kidding. Blame Zoogs for even nominating him.

 

[JJ Husker]

What makes people feel ostracized from P&R is their own insecurities and desire to not get into arguments. Some people hate arguing and get emotional about it.

But I love arguing.....

Heck most of the back and forth I have, with knapp in particular, is mostly just for the exercise of arguing.

There is somewhat of an art form to doing it effectively and what better way to get better at it than to engage the master.

Some people and possibly even knapp himself may think I really have a problem with him or his views. Nothing could be further from the truth.

99% of the time I either agree with him or at least respect his side of things and how he presents his argument.

The people I don't respect are the ones who I usually won't engage in discussion with.

Unfortunately, sometimes I do get emotional about it. But, if it's not worth getting a little emotional about, it's probably not worth arguing about in the first place.

And while I'm at it, zoogs, dudeguyy, LOMS, NM and you Moiraine are some others who I really enjoy reading your take on things even though we don't always see eye to eye on political matters. You guys (and gals) help open up my mind to some other viewpoints. You can carry on a contentious conversation without resorting to unwarranted attacks or belittling others. There are others of course but you are some of the most active in the P&R forum so I thought it was worth sharing.

 

[TAKODA]

What makes people feel ostracized from P&R is their own insecurities and desire to not get into arguments. Some people hate arguing and get emotional about it.

But I love arguing.....Heck most of the back and forth I have, with knapp in particular, is mostly just for the exercise of arguing.

There is somewhat of an art form to doing it effectively and what better way to get better at it than to engage the master.

Some people and possibly even knapp himself may think I really have a problem with him or his views. Nothing could be further from the truth.

99% of the time I either agree with him or at least respect his side of things and how he presents his argument.

The people I don't respect are the ones who I usually won't engage in discussion with.

Unfortunately, sometimes I do get emotional about it. But, if it's not worth getting a little emotional about, it's probably not worth arguing about in the first place.

And while I'm at it, zoogs, dudeguyy, LOMS, NM and you Moiraine are some others who I really enjoy reading your take on things even though we don't always see eye to eye on political matters. You guys (and gals) help open up my mind to some other viewpoints. You can carry on a contentious conversation without resorting to unwarranted attacks or belittling others. There are others of course but you are some of the most active in the P&R forum so I thought it was worth sharing.

.·´¯`(>▂&lt´¯`·.

 

[JJ Husker]

What makes people feel ostracized from P&R is their own insecurities and desire to not get into arguments. Some people hate arguing and get emotional about it.

But I love arguing.....Heck most of the back and forth I have, with knapp in particular, is mostly just for the exercise of arguing.

There is somewhat of an art form to doing it effectively and what better way to get better at it than to engage the master.

Some people and possibly even knapp himself may think I really have a problem with him or his views. Nothing could be further from the truth.

99% of the time I either agree with him or at least respect his side of things and how he presents his argument.

The people I don't respect are the ones who I usually won't engage in discussion with.

Unfortunately, sometimes I do get emotional about it. But, if it's not worth getting a little emotional about, it's probably not worth arguing about in the first place.

And while I'm at it, zoogs, dudeguyy, LOMS, NM and you Moiraine are some others who I really enjoy reading your take on things even though we don't always see eye to eye on political matters. You guys (and gals) help open up my mind to some other viewpoints. You can carry on a contentious conversation without resorting to unwarranted attacks or belittling others. There are others of course but you are some of the most active in the P&R forum so I thought it was worth sharing.

.·´¯`(>▂&lt´¯`·.

You and those darned symbol pictures. Do you have a book of those things or are you just way more creative than me?
Not sure if you're telling me that's enough of the touch feely stuff or if you felt left out. If it was the latter, don't worry, I didn't mention the people I usually agree with or that I've never had cause to argue with....yet anyway ~《●●》~ see I suck at it.

 

[Mierin]

What makes people feel ostracized from P&R is their own insecurities and desire to not get into arguments. Some people hate arguing and get emotional about it.

But I love arguing.....Heck most of the back and forth I have, with knapp in particular, is mostly just for the exercise of arguing.

There is somewhat of an art form to doing it effectively and what better way to get better at it than to engage the master.

Some people and possibly even knapp himself may think I really have a problem with him or his views. Nothing could be further from the truth.

99% of the time I either agree with him or at least respect his side of things and how he presents his argument.

The people I don't respect are the ones who I usually won't engage in discussion with.

Unfortunately, sometimes I do get emotional about it. But, if it's not worth getting a little emotional about, it's probably not worth arguing about in the first place.

And while I'm at it, zoogs, dudeguyy, LOMS, NM and you Moiraine are some others who I really enjoy reading your take on things even though we don't always see eye to eye on political matters. You guys (and gals) help open up my mind to some other viewpoints. You can carry on a contentious conversation without resorting to unwarranted attacks or belittling others. There are others of course but you are some of the most active in the P&R forum so I thought it was worth sharing.

*blush*

 

[RedDenver]

I avoided the P&R forum for years since I had assumed it was just pointless bickering. But I've found it to be interesting with a number of good points made on different sides to arguments. And I've been surprised to find a number of posters who question their own side of the house, which I find refreshing.

As for debating politics with the people in my life, it usually amounts to this: