Which is a more likely explanation for creation?

[NUance]

I understand all that. What I don't understand is why you, widely known on this board to be a devout believer, felt compelled to point this out rather than to offer some reasons for your belief in a creator. Really, the nonbelievers don't need any help. They've already got our inability to provide satisfactory proof. I guess it wouldn't bother me coming from one of those guys but, from you? Kind of felt like you were cheering for the wrong team in Memorial Stadium in the middle of the game. IDK.

Ahh, gotcha. I guess I don't think that anyone on either side really needs much help.

I've gotten to the point where I just don't have the energy to try and conjure up compelling apologetics unless it's in situations and contexts where I feel like it will be taken seriously or I have personal rapport with a person that I have seen is interested. Fact of the matter is huskerboard isn't really either of those things - nobody on this board is going to convert to team Jesus because of my posts, or at least, IF that were to happen, it would probably be from being compelled by my moments of being candid and hopefully reflecting Jesus rather than from the moments of me trying to consciously convince people of an argument.

If I'm honest, I became a Christian because I was an easily influenced kid in an environment conducive for the spread of cookie cutter white evangelicalism. That's not compelling to anyone, that's me being a product of my environment. But. That was 12+ years ago, and while I spent a good amount of that time in an isolated, exclusive, tribal Christian bubble, I've also spent a good amount of time, especially lately, distant from God, wandering, going through the prodigal motions, and either consciously or subconsciously trying to be done with the whole idea. And through all of what that has entailed, I can't escape the Christ. He continues to draw me back, to meet me on my own personal "road to Damascus", to awe me with wonder and hope and to chisel away at me towards gentleness, meekness and graciousness.

At the end of the day, I can try to give good arguments, and I think there are plenty of them, for historical evidence in support of Christianity, or the cosmological argument, or a million other different arguments, but those aren't what my faith is founded on. I've stripped away so much bullsh#t and all that's left is encounters with a living and loving God; encounters that I can't begin to wrap my head around and definitely can't explain well. That's the only kind of thing that I think can be compelling to your typical Huskerboard poster, but that comes from above, not from me

I'm just here to love God and love people, and hopefully fail a little less at both along the way.

Awesome answer. Thank you.

I'm getting closer to realizing that no team changing is likely to take place in this venue but I still approach it like it may happen from time to time. I would be better served to try it your way. I have the feeling I would find it far less frustrating and that I wouldnt lose my cool like I have a couple times already in this thread.

Yeah, I realize that no team changing is likely to take place here. Or for that matter on any message board. (How often in the history of message boards has anyone ever changed their opinion or admitted they were wrong? lol)

My whole deal is that it just seems so incredibly implausible that life just randomly sparked into existence. And it seems even more implausible that somehow that simple one celled lifeform became able to reproduce. And yet even more implausible that that one celled organism[SIZE=12pt]—[/SIZE]which was spontaneously created and somehow started reproducing[SIZE=12pt]—[/SIZE]then evolved into millions of different species here on little ole earth. All random and spontaneously. I just don't see how this could happen without a guiding hand behind it.

Also, the whole Big Bang theory seems like a non-answer to me. Isn't scientific method all about cause and effect? What caused the Big Bang? It's like seeing a set of footprints on the beach and saying, "Hey, we didn't see anyone walking so those footprints must have spontaneously sprang from a point of singularity." I guess I just don't have enough faith to believe in the religion of randomness.

 

[Red Dead Redemption]

I guess I just don't have enough faith to believe in the religion of randomness.

It would take more than faith. It would also require humility, a virtue that many people lack.
(Not necessarily referring to you NUance...

)

 

[NUance]

I guess I just don't have enough faith to believe in the religion of randomness.

It would take more than faith. It would also require humility, a virtue that many people lack.
(Not necessarily referring to you NUance...

)

It would also require *less* homily. A virtuous thing that even more people lack.

 

[Red Dead Redemption]

I guess I just don't have enough faith to believe in the religion of randomness.

It would take more than faith. It would also require humility, a virtue that many people lack.(Not necessarily referring to you NUance...

)

It would also require *less* homily. A virtuous thing that even more people lack.

 

[NUinID]

Knapp, the problem with that approach is that you are allowing for there being multiple or different gods based on how people have chosen to describe him. When you approach it from there being only one true God who created everything, you can more easily see that all those different names and multiple versions are simply human beings attempts at describing the same, one thing.

I don't happen to believe that what I believe in is absolutely correct or the only way. And, I don't believe that those who believe differently are inherently wrong. But the one thing that I know, from deep in my being, is that there is one God, one creator. My Catholic Christian faith may very well not have him nailed down (no pun intended) perfectly. I realize my more specific beliefs are the result of where and when I was born and where and how I was raised. That does not force me (unlike you) to demand that one way has to be right and all others wrong. I think that one all-powerful creator would be more than capable of dealing with an infinite number of people's versions of him. So, my and other Christians way to salvation may be the belief that Jesus Christ died for us and our religions may say that is the only way. Personally, I think there may be other ways, especially for people who have never been exposed to that knowledge. I sure am not going solely rely on my lowly human brain to limit the possibilities of an all powerful omniscient being. Maybe all we can do is the best we can do and that would allow for the Christian way being correct for Christians and the Hindu way being correct for Hindus, etc. What if they're all right?

JJ this is very much the way I feel on this subject. Thanks for sharing.

 

[funhusker]

Just because you think the thought of a God is totally hogwash, you are still willing to believe in a Big Bang from matter that always has existed. That matter had no "beginning".

Because there's gathering evidence that it's true.

http://www.space.com/20710-stephen-hawking-god-big-bang.html

That what's true?

So the poll question should read, "Is it more likely a supernatural entity created millions of universes" or "millions of universes popped up out of nothing for no reason?"

I like Hawking, but describing alternate theories isn't "proof' that God isn't needed.

The questions in the poll are both "unlikely" if we want to be honest. Humans seek for reasons why things happened, it's what we do. No matter what option you sided with, if we walked it all back the the very beginning, whether that be 13.8 billion years or "1 bazillion, million, trillion, 00000000 to the 100th power years" we would get the very first step and say "why?"

We are all overgrown 3-year-olds, always with the questions.....

 

[BigRedBuster]

Just because you think the thought of a God is totally hogwash, you are still willing to believe in a Big Bang from matter that always has existed. That matter had no "beginning".

Because there's gathering evidence that it's true.

http://www.space.com/20710-stephen-hawking-god-big-bang.html

That what's true?

So the poll question should read, "Is it more likely a supernatural entity created millions of universes" or "millions of universes popped up out of nothing for no reason?"

I like Hawking, but describing alternate theories isn't "proof' that God isn't needed.

The questions in the poll are both "unlikely" if we want to be honest. Humans seek for reasons why things happened, it's what we do. No matter what option you sided with, if we walked it all back the the very beginning, whether that be 13.8 billion years or "1 bazillion, million, trillion, 00000000 to the 100th power years" we would get the very first step and say "why?"

We are all overgrown 3-year-olds, always with the questions.....

True....

And, no matter what your personal belief is, at that very point of that very first step of creating the universe.......all sides to the argument have to believe in something that their mind can not comprehend.

 

[knapplc]

Just because you think the thought of a God is totally hogwash, you are still willing to believe in a Big Bang from matter that always has existed. That matter had no "beginning".

Because there's gathering evidence that it's true.

http://www.space.com/20710-stephen-hawking-god-big-bang.html

That what's true?

That the universe sprang into being without the need for a god.

 

[BigRedBuster]

Just because you think the thought of a God is totally hogwash, you are still willing to believe in a Big Bang from matter that always has existed. That matter had no "beginning".

Because there's gathering evidence that it's true.

http://www.space.com/20710-stephen-hawking-god-big-bang.html

That what's true?

That the universe sprang into being without the need for a god.

Where did the first molecules come from that created the Big Bang and when were they created?

 

[knapplc]

Where did the first molecules come from that created the Big Bang and when were they created?

Humans didn't know where the first molecules came from, so they created a god to explain it.

Just like they didn't know what lightning was, or earthquakes were, or the sun is.

 

[BigRedBuster]

Where did the first molecules come from that created the Big Bang and when were they created?

Humans didn't know where the first molecules came from, so they created a god to explain it.

Just like they didn't know what lightning was, or earthquakes were, or the sun is.

Wait a minute. I thought we were close to proving there is no need for believing God created the earth.

Well....this needs to be answered before that happens and I don't think we are anywhere close to coming up with some scientific proof of where the very first molecule of matter came from......without a higher power.

 

[knapplc]

We're in the same place as we were before knowing what lightning is. We can see the path laid out - as in the Hawking article I linked - we're just not all the way down it yet.

What we do have is the experience of walking this path with other unknown things, like earthquakes or lightning. I suppose you can claim that this is different because it's a bigger question, but I'd argue we're as close to finding the answer of the Big Bang as we were to grasping lightning when Zeus was still a thing.

 

[BigRedBuster]

We're in the same place as we were before knowing what lightning is. We can see the path laid out - as in the Hawking article I linked - we're just not all the way down it yet.

What we do have is the experience of walking this path with other unknown things, like earthquakes or lightning. I suppose you can claim that this is different because it's a bigger question, but I'd argue we're as close to finding the answer of the Big Bang as we were to grasping lightning when Zeus was still a thing.

Asking where lightning comes from is totally different than where the first molecules of matter came from when nothing exists before those molecules. The lightning has forces around it that are explained through science. If there are no forces around to create the molecules, then it is beyond comprehension of how those molecules were created.

Once those molecules are there....sure....we can some day maybe know everything that happened after that through science.

PS.....your link didn't work for me.

 

[funhusker]

Where did the first molecules come from that created the Big Bang and when were they created?

Humans didn't know where the first molecules came from, so they created a god to explain it.

Just like they didn't know what lightning was, or earthquakes were, or the sun is.

Wait a minute. I thought we were close to proving there is no need for believing God created the earth.
Well....this needs to be answered before that happens and I don't think we are anywhere close to coming up with some scientific proof of where the very first molecule of matter came from......without a higher power.

And once we figure out where the first molecule came from, we will still be faced with the question, "what caused that?" It's a neverending cycle. And I don't mean to say that we should just break down and say, "God did it!" Personally, I am very curious to see "how" God did it. And whether you believe or not, we all should want to follow that same trail.

 

[knapplc]

It's only different because we want it to be. They're the same thing: Knowledge We Don't Have Yet.