Man I forgot how good Taylor's wheels were

[Landlord]

Does he make your top 3? Top 4?

Statistically he will end up number 1, I think, right?

I don't really have any idea where I'd put him, and I wont' know until after this season. Statistically he essentially already is number 1.

Gotcha, heh. But I think all that means is that there isn't an argument for anyone besides Suh to be our best DT. Since Martinez/Crouch/Frazier and throw in a couple others too definitely all have compelling arguments, imho. Frazier definitely wins in the motivation/leadership category and his winning championships shows that so he has a big advantage there. But it's not everything.

Crouch, Frazier, Frost, Gill, Tagge, etc. all have compelling arguments. Taylor can be in the discussion, but eventually you look at what he has that the others don't. Better stats. Why? Well, starting and playing four full seasons is the biggest (not only) reason, so there's a little bit of merit there but how much. However, all the rest have something he doesn't. They all won championships. A lot of them were also All-Americans or major award winners as well.

I think you're just being difficult. You're smart enough to realize, like the rest of us, the difference between an Ndamukong Suh and a Taylor Martinez.

 

[RockyMountainOySker]

Yes, he does have a compelling argument. Does Suh not have a compelling argument as the greatest DT in school history? He won no championships.

A lone DT doesn't win championships but the greatest QB in the history better eff'n do so. How is it possible you are trying to compare the two? You've got to be joking right?!?!

No QB can win a championship on his own. Tommie Frazier would not have won a championship with the defense we had last year. IIRC, Wisconsin's offense scored 63 points on us and their defense scored 7.

That 7 by their defense a pick 6 by Taylor aka "arguably the best QB in Nebraska history" on our first offensive play of the game. Now I don't fully put that on Taylor, KBell could have caught it, knocked it down, whatever.

To the point of QB vs DT, can you honestly say to yourself that a DT has just as much effect on championship as a QB over the course of a season? Just want to make it very clear this is what you believe.

 

[sd'sker]

How does a lone QB win championships? Does he not have to have a RB threat to take eyes off him (presuming he's a running QB). Does he not have to have at the very least good WRs to catch the passes he throws? How can a QB win a championship by himself but a Defensive Tackle can't?

for a qb, it really comes down to o-line to set them over the top. look at those great college qb's at miami and usc. they had days of protection, not to mention get skill players around them. but the o-line is always so underrated in these conversations. for both qb's and rb's.

 

[knapplc]

To the point of QB vs DT, can you honestly say to yourself that a DT has just as much effect on championship as a QB over the course of a season? Just want to make it very clear this is what you believe.

Let me put it to you this way. You're drafting your dream Husker team from scratch. I'm drafting mine. You pick ahead of me. Who would you pick first, Martinez or Suh?

EDIT - that's an interesting time-killer for the Contest Crib. Hmmm......

 

[Landlord]

To the point of QB vs DT, can you honestly say to yourself that a DT has just as much effect on championship as a QB over the course of a season? Just want to make it very clear this is what you believe.

Let me put it to you this way. You're drafting your dream Husker team from scratch. I'm drafting mine. You pick ahead of me. Who would you pick first, Martinez or Suh?

EDIT - that's an interesting time-killer for the Contest Crib. Hmmm......

How about this:

You're drafting your dream husker team from scratch. You pick first. Which position do you pick first, quarterback or defensive tackle?

 

[Mierin]

Yes, he does have a compelling argument. Does Suh not have a compelling argument as the greatest DT in school history? He won no championships.

A lone DT doesn't win championships but the greatest QB in the history better eff'n do so. How is it possible you are trying to compare the two? You've got to be joking right?!?!

No QB can win a championship on his own. Tommie Frazier would not have won a championship with the defense we had last year. IIRC, Wisconsin's offense scored 63 points on us and their defense scored 7.

7 of which was a pick 6 by "arguably (since you say this is all you're saying) the best QB in Nebraska history" on our first offensive play of the game. Now I don't fully put that on Taylor, KBell could have caught it, knocked it down, whatever.

To the point of QB vs DT, can you honestly say to yourself that a DT has just as much effect on championship as a QB over the course of a season? Just want to make it very clear this is what you believe.

Er... I already said 7 was by the defense. Or are you pointing it out like I was trying to hide it was by Martinez? Heh. I don't think anyone forgets that.

No, and that's not what I said on the forum either. Hypothetically I would say there is a limit for each position's effect on whether the team wins a championship, and you can then compare them with the other people at their positions. But in my opinion the QB has less influence than people seem to think. A QB with a terrible OL is not the same QB as he would be with a decent one. The fact that there are so many factors and variables is why I say it can be argued that Martinez is the best QB. Winning a championship is a factor but it's not the only one. Like I said already, Frazier would not have won one with this defense against these teams. But I won't argue that Martinez would have beat Miami, either. It can also be argued that if Frazier had been quarterback against Oklahoma, Nebraska would have won. But it can be argued that if Martinez hadn't been injured, Nebraska would have won.

 

[knapplc]

To the point of QB vs DT, can you honestly say to yourself that a DT has just as much effect on championship as a QB over the course of a season? Just want to make it very clear this is what you believe.

Let me put it to you this way. You're drafting your dream Husker team from scratch. I'm drafting mine. You pick ahead of me. Who would you pick first, Martinez or Suh?

EDIT - that's an interesting time-killer for the Contest Crib. Hmmm......

How about this:

You're drafting your dream husker team from scratch. You pick first. Which position do you pick first, quarterback or defensive tackle?

DT, without question. We've had a LOT of pretty good QBs. Not that many truly superlative DTs.

 

[knapplc]

Er... I already said 7 was by the defense. Or are you pointing it out like I was trying to hide it was by Martinez? Heh. I don't think anyone forgets that.

Kenny Bell tripped on the turf. The DB wasn't even looking at the ball (check the endzone camera angle). The ball bounced off Kenny's hand and almost physically stuck itself to the DB's chest.

I believe that was his first pick of the season, and his first career pick-six. It was sheer, utter dumb luck.

 

[Landlord]

Er... I already said 7 was by the defense. Or are you pointing it out like I was trying to hide it was by Martinez? Heh. I don't think anyone forgets that.

Kenny Bell tripped on the turf. The DB wasn't even looking at the ball (check the endzone camera angle). The ball bounced off Kenny's hand and almost physically stuck itself to the DB's chest.

I believe that was his first pick of the season, and his first career pick-six. It was sheer, utter dumb luck.

The same kind of dumb luck we've been giving opponents for the last 8+ years

 

[RockyMountainOySker]

Er... I already said 7 was by the defense. Or are you pointing it out like I was trying to hide it was by Martinez? Heh. I don't think anyone forgets that.

Kenny Bell tripped on the turf. The DB wasn't even looking at the ball (check the endzone camera angle). The ball bounced off Kenny's hand and almost physically stuck itself to the DB's chest.

I believe that was his first pick of the season, and his first career pick-six. It was sheer, utter dumb luck.

Very true and I mentioned it. Taylor had little to do with the pick 6. Just an incredibly unlucky play. I don't really feel the need to keep this convo going. Taylor is a heck of a QB. I'm just not ready to put him in the best ever argument yet. No big deal.

 

[knapplc]

Er... I already said 7 was by the defense. Or are you pointing it out like I was trying to hide it was by Martinez? Heh. I don't think anyone forgets that.

Kenny Bell tripped on the turf. The DB wasn't even looking at the ball (check the endzone camera angle). The ball bounced off Kenny's hand and almost physically stuck itself to the DB's chest.

I believe that was his first pick of the season, and his first career pick-six. It was sheer, utter dumb luck.

Very true and I mentioned it. Taylor had little to do with the pick 6. Just an incredibly unlucky play. I don't really feel the need to keep this convo going. Taylor is a heck of a QB. I'm just not ready to put him in the best ever argument yet. No big deal.

I think, stats-wise, there's no doubt he'd be the greatest ever. Barring injury that's a done deal.

I also think he's a hell of a competitor. He willed this team to several wins last year we probably shouldn't have gotten, with no Rex and that sieve defense. But "best ever" puts him in elite company with Frazier, Gill, Humm, Crouch, Frost (1996 Frost). I don't know that he belongs there. I think if you put him on those teams he's more successful, but is he truly the best of the best? I don't know.

EDIT - to wrap this back into the DT conversation, is there a team in the past 50 years you could put Suh on and say he wouldn't make that defense better? I doubt it. But is there a team in the past 50 you could put Martinez on and say he wouldn't make that team better? I can think of a few. Especially those pass-heavy (for the day) early 70s teams. Even going back to the late 70s/early 80s when Osborne went to the rushing attack offense in response to the Wishbone, I don't know that Taylor would improve every team. Not at QB, anyway.

 

[Chimalli]

To the point of QB vs DT, can you honestly say to yourself that a DT has just as much effect on championship as a QB over the course of a season? Just want to make it very clear this is what you believe.

Let me put it to you this way. You're drafting your dream Husker team from scratch. I'm drafting mine. You pick ahead of me. Who would you pick first, Martinez or Suh?

EDIT - that's an interesting time-killer for the Contest Crib. Hmmm......

Martinez. Suh only had two dominant years, not to diminish his play, where as Martinez has been a constant threat for the last 3+ years. I subscribe to the philosophy of building a team around your QB.

 

[Count 'Bility]

For the record, I like Taylor and think he's a heck of a QB. But, to announce him as the greatest QB in Nebraska history is ludicrous.

For the record, this has not happened. Not once. We're just putting him in the conversation. He absolutely should not be eliminated from the conversation just because he had an inept OC for a year, and poor defenses for his other 2 (possibly 3) years and didnt win any championships. No one's sayin he's the greatest. He's just one of the greatest.

 

[Chaddyboxer]

To the point of QB vs DT, can you honestly say to yourself that a DT has just as much effect on championship as a QB over the course of a season? Just want to make it very clear this is what you believe.

Let me put it to you this way. You're drafting your dream Husker team from scratch. I'm drafting mine. You pick ahead of me. Who would you pick first, Martinez or Suh?

EDIT - that's an interesting time-killer for the Contest Crib. Hmmm......

Martinez. Suh only had two dominant years, not to diminish his play, where as Martinez has been a constant threat for the last 3+ years. I subscribe to the philosophy of building a team around your QB.

You do have a valid point about overall level of play.....but I still agree with Knapp's sentiments on the issue. Suh would be my first pick and could elevate any team on defense in the past 50 years. Martinez...not so much..as far as any team. A Suh at his best is just a ridiculous defensive machine that can't be stopped....Martinez at his best....well....maybe we haven't seen his best? So...this is still left up for discussion.

 

[Joe_5700]

Just for arguments sake (and since your entire stance seems to be on Taylor's stats), let's take a look Suh's and Taylor's stats in championship games.

Ndumakong Suh

Big 12 championship - 12 tackles, 7 tackles for loss, 4.5 sacks.

Taylor Martinez

Big 12 championship - 12 of 24, 143 yards, 0 TDs, 1 incerception, - 32 rushing yards (that's negative), 0 TDs, 1 fumble (3 other fumbles recovered by Neb)

Big 10 Championship - 17 of 33, 184 yards, 0 TDs, 2 interceptions, 140 rushing yards, 2 TDs, 1 fumble (1 other fumble recovered by Neb)

Notice a difference? One had one of the greatest games statistically from his position ever.

For the record, I like Taylor and think he's a heck of a QB. But, to announce him as the greatest QB in Nebraska history is ludicrous.

Many seem to judge Suh's entire career here by the Texas game. Maybe it's just me though...