Douchebag Thread for Politics & Religion Spill Over

Rike Miley said:
El Diaco said:
Is it possible there is a one true God but no religion (man) has got him figured out perfectly?
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Yes. And Im not afraid to admit that I dont know. In fact there are times I do believe there is one true creator, but where my views differ from Christians is I dont think this creator really cares all that much about his creation. I think there is life on other planets, universes and galaxies. And we are just a VERY small part of this "Gods" creation. And other times I think Im FOS with that line of thinking.
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Not only is it possible, but if there is a God (even if all you consider God is the energies that created and sustain the universe), then it is inevitable that no religion has got God figured out.

The best we can do when we talk about God is use metaphor. God doesn't have a penis, yet many faiths call God Father. Why? Because those traditions arose in patriarchal societies where A) men ruled, and B) there was no sociological concept of something being genderless. God doesn't have an anthropomorphized mouth that utters Hebrew, yet Genesis says that God said, "Let there be..." Why? Because the Israelites were crafting a new, different kind of origin text from the surrounding cultures around them, to show that the true source of all was a God with agency and consciousness who was invested in and delighted in what was created.

Just in the Bible, first God walked in the garden. Then God was a fiery bush that recited existentialist poetry. Then God was a pillar of smoke and fire. Then God dwelt in the ark of the covenant. Then God dwelt in the tabernacle, and then the temple, inaccessible to all. Then God had a face in the man Jesus. Then God came and lived inside your heart through the Spirit.

Which one of these is God? None of them entirely. All of them in some respect.

 
God, being omnipotent, does not need to appear as anything other than something humans can readily understand and not at all misinterpret. So why "appear" as a fiery bush, or a pillar of fire & smoke? Or as a man?

Why not just be God. "Hey, guys, it's me again - God." "Oh, hey, God! Great to see you again. What's up?"

If God cannot appear to us as something that doesn't consume us, or something that we can't understand, then god is not omnipotent. If God is omnipotent and chooses to appear as these interpretable things, then he's an a-hole for making "his children" go through all these hoops to try and "understand" him.

If our eternal souls depend on correctly interpreting the meaning of a pillar of fire & smoke, it's pretty clear some people aren't going to interpret that correctly, and some are going to hell. That's not "loving," that's assholery.

OR

Such stories are normal for the time they were first told/written, there are contemporary stories from other cultures for other gods doing the same or very similar things, and these are all just relics of Bronze Age myths that people don't want to give up because they don't like the idea of life ending.

And no, "god" is not the same to Hindus, Christians or Aztecs. "God" is not Vishnu, nor Quetzalcoatl, nor Odin, nor Zeus. The Christian god is a disparate, necessarily different god than any other god, and if you read your Bible he expressly tells you that on multiple occasions. This "god appears to everyone everywhere in different forms" is temporizing. It is not based in foundational Christian beliefs.

 
If God were to appear at all, that's already a condescending revelation based on human terms - manifesting something physically, within the spectrum of light that our eyes can perceive, in temporal space. There's no such thing as an observation void of interpretation. To observe is to interpret wavelengths into electrical signals into subjective comprehension. As long as human consciousness happens inside of brains, it's impossible for something to be, "not at all misinterpreted".

You bring up the, "if God does ______ then that's not a loving father that's an a-hole" trope a lot, knapp. Does a loving father speak to his 3 year old using super dense vocabulary, explaining esoteric and abstract ideas that the kid is entirely incapable of being able to understand, or does a loving father communicate ideas and concepts and using language that is accessible to the 3 year old? Little kids can't understand an idea like democracy. But they can understand that the President is in charge. Similarly, if an omnipotent creator exists, we're entirely incapable of being able to see that for what it truly is. For all we know the "just appear as God" is already in front of us but we lack being able to see such things. But we can start to understand glimpses of that reality through metaphor, through symbolism, through people, through commands, cultural maxims, and so on.

 
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knapplc said:
God, being omnipotent, does not need to appear as anything other than something humans can readily understand and not at all misinterpret. So why "appear" as a fiery bush, or a pillar of fire & smoke? Or as a man?

Why not just be God. "Hey, guys, it's me again - God." "Oh, hey, God! Great to see you again. What's up?"

If God cannot appear to us as something that doesn't consume us, or something that we can't understand, then god is not omnipotent. If God is omnipotent and chooses to appear as these interpretable things, then he's an a-hole for making "his children" go through all these hoops to try and "understand" him.

If our eternal souls depend on correctly interpreting the meaning of a pillar of fire & smoke, it's pretty clear some people aren't going to interpret that correctly, and some are going to hell. That's not "loving," that's assholery.

OR

Such stories are normal for the time they were first told/written, there are contemporary stories from other cultures for other gods doing the same or very similar things, and these are all just relics of Bronze Age myths that people don't want to give up because they don't like the idea of life ending.
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But if God is omniscient how can we possibly know what his thoughts are, or what agenda he has with us? It's like scientists mulling over how the universe was created. We aren't remotely close to being intelligent enough to know the answers to such questions. It's only been a short time ago that we figured out that the earth wasn't flat.

And no, "god" is not the same to Hindus, Christians or Aztecs. "God" is not Vishnu, nor Quetzalcoatl, nor Odin, nor Zeus. The Christian god is a disparate, necessarily different god than any other god, and if you read your Bible he expressly tells you that on multiple occasions. This "god appears to everyone everywhere in different forms" is temporizing. It is not based in foundational Christian beliefs.
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As for the Christian God being the same as the god of the Aztecs, or Odin, Zeus, etc. I did not say that all gods are real or true. I said that I know the God I worship, the Christian God, is real. (I call him the "Christian" God because I know him through Christianity. But maybe others have known him through other religions. :shrug: ) I don't know enough to judge whether other religions are true or false. But it wouldn't surprise me to discover that God has appeared to other peoples, nations, races etc. in different forms.
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knapplc said:
Where do you guys know the Christian god from? Is there some book aside from the Bible I don't know about?
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There's these other things some people use called observation, reasoning, common sense and inspired understanding. I'm starting to understand why you have such a problem with God and the Christian God in particular.
I thought you had made the point many times that the Bible was written by men and that men have agendas and are not exempt from making errors. Not only that but the numerous translations have morphed some of the original intent. Yet when it serves your purpose, you stick to a fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible.

My personal feeling is that there is not one correct way to interpret what the Bible tells us or only one right way to understand God or only one right religion. Maybe I just rationalize and that is what helps me get past the problem areas. But whatever it is, it seems to be working well for me. I learned a long time ago to trust God, believing he would do the right thing. And to just accept that much of it is beyond human understanding. You seem to think humans are fully capable of understanding everything and you even have the gall to self determine exactly how a supernatural entity should do things. I would never begin to presume to tell God how he should go about being God. Maybe that is why some of us believe and have faith and some of us don't.

 
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Rike Miley said:
El Diaco said:
Is it possible there is a one true God but no religion (man) has got him figured out perfectly?
Click to expand...
Yes. And Im not afraid to admit that I dont know.
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What I attempted to say earlier was that I like this view.
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It's not exactly mine, but it's quite close. Yours is a view that humans created religions in various imperfect attempts to ascertain the nature of the one true God. Mine is the same but it doesn't hold even 'one true God' as a given truth.

 
knapplc said:
Can the Bible be interpreted any way I want? Like... is there no objective one truth to the Bible?
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Since we use our senses and our brains, and language (which has a large role in the way your brain and your perception of reality develops) to interact with the Bible, is there one singularly proper interpretation of the Bible?

zoogs said:
Rike Miley said:
El Diaco said:
Is it possible there is a one true God but no religion (man) has got him figured out perfectly?
Click to expand...
Yes. And Im not afraid to admit that I dont know.
Click to expand...
What I attempted to say earlier was that I like this view.
default_smile.png


It's not exactly mine, but it's quite close. Yours is a view that humans created religions in various imperfect attempts to ascertain the nature of the one true God. Mine is the same but it doesn't hold even 'one true God' as a given truth.
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I'm essentially in the same boat. I almost agree with not holding 'one true God' as a given truth as well, but only because of the hyper-religious contexts that the word 'God' is nearly universally associated with. The language of God is still incredibly useful to me personally, though, even if all 'God' turns out to be is the forces and energy that created and sustain the universe. Even if there is no conscious agency behind that, I hold onto the idea that it is imbued with a force of reconciliation. A spiritual/moral anti-entropy, if you will. To be in harmony and rhythm with that energy, I think, is what it is to be Christ-like.

"I do not pretend to understand the moral universe; the arc is a long one, my eye reaches but little ways; I cannot calculate the curve and complete the figure by the experience of sight; I can divine it by conscience. And from what I see I am sure it bends towards justice." - Theodore Parker

 
knapplc said:
Can the Bible be interpreted any way I want? Like... is there no objective one truth to the Bible?
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Any way you want is not the same as no one right way. For some people, there may be some or many objective truths contained in it. My feeling is that an omnipotent being can deal with each individual person that has ever walked this earth under their own specific circumstances. i.e. If I had never been exposed to the message of Jesus, then maybe that wouldn't be the way for me but since I have, maybe it is. There's a sh#t ton of people who are Muslim and believe in Allah. Who am I to say that way doesn't work just as well. I think an all powerful God can make himself known in various ways without any one way being the only way. So maybe there are objective truths for some people and maybe none for others. That might be hard to wrap your mind around but I don't think it's difficult at all for God. That's one reason your list of 1000 gods doesn't concern me. I think it much more likely that an eternal omnipotent being has made himself known in a billion different ways rather than just one right way. I don't have an explanation for why he doesn't just show up a million feet tall on cloud and say "hey, it's me God" or why the Bible portrays him as loving father when our humanly understanding of a loving father would do things differently. I'm just really sure we didn't arrive at this place by random chance. If we did, what a waste it would be. Something deep inside me tells me we have a higher purpose for being. I can't explain it any better than that. It surely can't be just to exist, go to school, get a job, and die. I want there to be more therefore I believe there is more.

 
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I dont know, with the universe being as big as it is, I just dont think we are the only forms of life out there. You ever watch the Flash on CW? Those are kind of like my views of the multiverse is what they call it. There may be another Rike Miley billions of light years away for all I know. I think we are just a very small cog in the bigger picture. No higher purpose for being here, we are just here and you make your own luck and purpose for being alive. Like I said earlier, maybe there is a intelligent creator. Maybe this intelligent creator made us in the hope we would be "his" best creation and then when we turned to sh#t he abandoned us to create something better. Thats the only way I can wrap my head around all the evil and death and war in this world and wonder why God wont step in and say "thats enough!"

 
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I believe God or a higher power exists because there are far too many incredible things in this world/universe. I may be a practicing Lutheran, but I also believe there are several ways to interpret God, that Lutheranism probably has inaccuracies and has nowhere close to all the answers.

For myself, I can have faith without it being a burden. I can have faith without being completely tied down to the exact doctrines of my religion. Some in my faith may disagree with this viewpoint and approach, but I also believe we're all imperfect, and that can cause us all to create our own interpretations of our existence. And absolutely none of us can say, with factual certainty, that one person is right or one person is wrong.

 
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