DOJ Initial Russia Hearings

VectorVictor said:
There's nothing honest about this take--attacking the messenger because you don't like the message is avoidance in addressing the issues in question, especially when Mueller did answer the questions in a satisfactory manner. 

Bulls**t. That's willful ignorance right there--Mueller clearly answered the questions and responded accordingly.

For a sane, rational actor, the Mueller Report (at least what we've been able to see) already shows obstruction on the part of the sitting President to anyone that doesn't want to turn a blind eye to his actions, and it clearly demonstrates (along with Mueller's testimony) that Russia's continued interference is a threat to our democracy that isn't been addressed because the President is compromised. 

Digging in further and supporting Trump after this is pure gamesmanship of politics--we want our guy to win no matter what--and is morally reprehensible. And this is excluding the valid charges of overt racism and sexual assaults. 

Seriously--if having "your guy" in the White House matters more than morals, ethics, integrity, or honesty, then your party is beyond saving. 
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I don't disagree with anything you said, the thing is though a large portion of this country is beyond saving right now. @knapplc there are actual people on there who support Trump too. I think we are being way too laxidasical about this. Fact of the matter is Trump committed crimes and needs to be impeached. We cannot rely on the electorate to remove him. He has done and said more than enough vile things to have not elected him in the first place. I really don't think obstruction of justice matters much to the folks that voted him in. I'm sorry but I'm not taking chances that he will lose at the polls. Congress must take tye required  action. If this just turns into soundbytes for the campaign against Trump welcome to 4 more years of hell. I really don't think that is enough.

 
VectorVictor said:
There's nothing honest about this take--attacking the messenger because you don't like the message is avoidance in addressing the issues in question, especially when Mueller did answer the questions in a satisfactory manner. 
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TGHusker said:
That was pretty much the GOP tactic - avoid the truth, the smoke and fire and attack the fireman trying to do something about it.
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Exactly. That's all I'm saying is that Mueller's testimony did nothing to quelch the GOP's tactics. If you haven't made your mind up by now, you're not going to. His testimony didn't really move the needle from where we have been, because we've pretty much heard it all before over the past few months.

To Nebfanatics point above, the electorate in this country is pretty messed up right now, and it's damn scary that Trump could easily win again in 2020. Just look at some of the posters hear that back this guy. They're not stupid people, but the fact that they can't or won't see the light is frightening.

 
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I get what ZRod is saying. There are a lot of folks who will continue to support Trump no matter what, regardless of the amount of evidence that is piled up in front of them, and there is always a lot of effort to discredit anything that is negative about the man. And on the other hand, anyone else who is actually reasonable, intelligent, and well-informed already knows the truth about Trump.

BUT...if there is any amount of people who might be swayed by this, the narrative needs to be pushed. If Trump's approval rating hovers between 35% and 40%, then we need to reach those 5% (or whatever the numbers are), no matter who they are or how ignorant they are. The GOP and their mouthpieces win by repeatedly forcing their rhetoric, loudly and relentlessly. Hearing the same lies and fear-mongering over and over eventually sinks in to people's brains. That is how "liberal" became a dirty word. That is how years of race-baiting via the dog whistle finally manifested itself into open racism. That is why people think the left is going to take their guns away. That is why people think immigrant are taking our jobs. That is why people think democrats are baby-killers and want open borders. That is why people don't trust the media. They keep hearing the same lies long enough.

The same tactic needs to be used the other direction, but with truth and evidence. So by god, we need to continue to expose and shame Trump's criminal activity and all of his other flaws. Over and over. We need to expose and shame GOP hypocrisy. We need to expose and shame racism/xenophobia. The message needs to be relentless. Your mind is not going to be changed. My mind is not going to be changed. But someone's might, and it is never wrong to fight for the truth. The truth needs to cover up the bull$h!t until even the other side cannot avoid it. So yes, we needed Mueller's testimony. We need the report. We need the media. We need to keep talking about it. And we need impeachment. 

If anyone has read "Good to Great," then you know what I mean when I saw we need to keep pushing that flywheel. Bit by bit. Even if each push doesn't seem to make a difference. Keep fighting until it finally does make a difference. 

 
ZRod said:
Exactly. That's all I'm saying is that Mueller's testimony did nothing to quelch the GOP's tactics. If you haven't made your mind up by now, you're not going to. He testimony didn't really move the needle from where we have been, because we've pretty much hear it all before for the past few months.
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I don't think this is the case, and I'll refer back to the woman who found out for the first time at a town hall meeting that there was something bad for Trump in the Mueller Report. She had been watching conservative media all the time, and literally had no idea. She was shocked.

With easily digestible clips of simple questions and answers, the Mueller Report now goes out to a lot more people. It'll be on social media through the election, referred to over and over.

 
knapplc said:
I don't think this is the case, and I'll refer back to the woman who found out for the first time at a town hall meeting that there was something bad for Trump in the Mueller Report. She had been watching conservative media all the time, and literally had no idea. She was shocked.

With easily digestible clips of simple questions and answers, the Mueller Report now goes out to a lot more people. It'll be on social media through the election, referred to over and over.
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Unfortunately that's not the stuff that will get play on Fox News. I can almost guarantee you Hannity and The Five will be playing clips of Mueller not answering questions, being confused, and Republicans tearing into him about donors and Peter Strozk.

I think we're all blessed here. The level of informedness and willingness to learn is far and away greater than what the average American posses.

 
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ZRod said:
Exactly. That's all I'm saying is that Mueller's testimony did nothing to quelch the GOP's tactics. If you haven't made your mind up by now, you're not going to. His testimony didn't really move the needle from where we have been, because we've pretty much heard it all before over the past few months.
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I disagree. A lot of people haven't made up their mind because the 400+ page report was very complex and hard to digest in condensed soundbites. I'm a licensed attorney in three states, state court and federal court, and practicing litigator, and it took a lot of time and concentration to follow. Coupled with that, Barr tried to spin it before it was even released. Mueller's testimony today, which includes some great condensed nuggets, will help make up minds. More importantly, I think (and hope) it will increase voter turnout.

 
ZRod said:
Unfortunately that's not the stuff that will get play on Fox News. I can almost guarantee you Hannity and The Five will be playing clips of Mueller not answering questions, being confused, and Republicans tearing into him about donors and Peter Strozk.
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Yeah, I know. But it will play on their Facebook feed, on twitter, etc. More people are going to see this now than would have before Mueller testified.

 
ZRod said:
Unfortunately that's not the stuff that will get play on Fox News. I can almost guarantee you Hannity and The Five will be playing clips of Mueller not answering questions, being confused, and Republicans tearing into him about donors and Peter Strozk.
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Exactly. I feel like people are being too ideal right now. The polarization will continue and possible worsen. This is why we need Congress to take action. Clips of Trump under oath will be harder to deny imo.

Its a dangerous game to try and drag this out to the election and try to beat him there. Likely he would lose but thats what everyone thought the first time....

 
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knapplc said:
Yeah, I know. But it will play on their Facebook feed, on twitter, etc. More people are going to see this now than would have before Mueller testified.
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I really hope it does man, but I don't think it will. The crazy right wing propaganda will flood FB as it always does, with help from Boris and Vlad.

I'm pretty jaded right now.

 
knapplc said:
Yeah, I know. But it will play on their Facebook feed, on twitter, etc. More people are going to see this now than would have before Mueller testified.
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One person at a time, Facebook, over coffee, via eml, twitter, etc. We all can influence in some way.  In some states, like Okla where I'm at, my impact will be less as I battle the rock rolling down hill but in Minn, Wisc, Mich, Penn, Ohio, Florida, NC, VA  - enough people speaking out can make a difference. 

 
Nebfanatic said:
Its a dangerous game to try and drag this out to the election and try to beat him there. Likely he would lose but thats what everyone thought the first time....
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I do still half think that's Pelosi's strategy. I think it's a bad one, but it's the only reason I can think of that makes any kind of sense why you wouldn't impeach now.

ZRod said:
I really hope it does man, but I don't think it will. The crazy right wing propaganda will flood FB as it always does, with help from Boris and Vlad.

I'm pretty jaded right now.
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I get it, believe me. Chin up!

 
knapplc said:
I don't think this is the case, and I'll refer back to the woman who found out for the first time at a town hall meeting that there was something bad for Trump in the Mueller Report. She had been watching conservative media all the time, and literally had no idea. She was shocked.

With easily digestible clips of simple questions and answers, the Mueller Report now goes out to a lot more people. It'll be on social media through the election, referred to over and over.
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Exactly.

This hearing was important so that it is out for everyone to HEAR from his own mouth what was in the report.  There WAS obstruction.  He WOULD indict him after he leaves office.  He DID lie to the American people.  Russians ARE still trying to meddle in our elections and the President doesn't care/supports it.

There will still be people who don't hear those things.  I just wasted 5 minutes of my time reading my facebook page and comments from Trump supporters.  All they would talk about is how the Republicans exposed those lying libtards.  

 
knapplc said:
I do still half think that's Pelosi's strategy. I think it's a bad one, but it's the only reason I can think of that makes any kind of sense why you wouldn't impeach now.

I get it, believe me. Chin up!
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If she is waiting to start impeachment until the campaign season starts rolling along that might not be a terrible idea. Make sure its fresh in the voters mind, hem Donny up from his campaign, get him riled up before the election. If they don't try to impeach at any point though, I agree thats a bad idea.

 
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