Racism - It's a real thing.

ZRod said:
Seems like neither side wants to have an honest discussion here. 

There are very obviously issue with law enforcement and how they treat the African American population. To deny that is to deny history, data, and reality. At the same time it's pretty obvious that not all cops are bad, and most are respectable people. With a little more thought it's also clear that even good cops can fall victim to stereotypes and generalizations that put them in to bad situations. Your training literally teaches you to be "fearful" and judge people by their appearance to protect yourself and the community. You probably police based on statistics, but those statistics become a self fulfilling prophecy when you constantly go after the same areas again and again.
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I don't think I've been arguing anything other than what you just stated. There is obviously an issue. That doesn't mean cops are racist pigs. All it means is there is an issue that should be acknowledged and addressed. This goes for any part of society that racism effects, but law enforcement is such a hot button issue because peoples lives are at stake in a very literal sense. 

 
ZRod said:
Seems like neither side wants to have an honest discussion here. 

There are very obviously issue with law enforcement and how they treat the African American population. To deny that is to deny history, data, and reality. At the same time it's pretty obvious that not all cops are bad, and most are respectable people. With a little more thought it's also clear that even good cops can fall victim to stereotypes and generalizations that put them in to bad situations. Your training literally teaches you to be "fearful" and judge people by their appearance to protect yourself and the community. You probably police based on statistics, but those statistics become a self fulfilling prophecy when you constantly go after the same areas again and again.
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Sure, but that is every line of work.  To deny that is to deny...well...reality. 

 
ZRod said:
Seems like neither side wants to have an honest discussion here. 
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Who's being dishonest?

@BIGREDIOWAN is agreeing that there can be racial biases among LEOs, but is saying painting all cops as racist is insulting.

@Nebfanatic is saying that statistically, there are biases in police stops/arrests/shootings, and that racism exists everywhere.

I don't think either is being dishonest. I think they're talking past each other quite a bit but I don't see that as coming from a dishonest position from either of them.

 
knapplc said:
Who's being dishonest?

@BIGREDIOWAN is agreeing that there can be racial biases among LEOs, but is saying painting all cops as racist is insulting.

@Nebfanatic is saying that statistically, there are biases in police stops/arrests/shootings, and that racism exists everywhere.

I don't think either is being dishonest. I think they're talking past each other quite a bit but I don't see that as coming from a dishonest position from either of them.
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Statistics back up my point but there is more to it than that for me. I grew up in Nebraska but have lived in the south for a few years now and it's safe to say I have learned alot. I have alot to learn but what I have learned is this. We are a long, long, long way from equality in our country.

Not less than 100 years ago black men in Mississippi  could  and would be charged and convicted of crimes committed by white men. Black men could be killed by white men with no repercussions. Laws were created specifically to target people of color and break apart their families, just like in the days of the slave trade when they would sell family members to the furthest corners of the map away from each other.

People want the  African American community to clean up their act and have better family units and communities when the system has been tearing these things apart on purpose since they have been in this country. And it has happened on multiple levels.

So I have a problem when people aren't willing to admit that their is indeed discrimination within the system. No one is saying anything about individuals. The fact that comes up irks me a bit. Nowhere have I called anyone a racist and to take that from what I am saying is a bit ridiculous. There is a problem and the you can only fix a problem if you acknowledge it exists. 

 
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Nebfanatic said:
Statistics back up my point but there is more to it than that for me. I grew up in Nebraska but have lived in the south for a few years now and it's safe to say I have learned alot. I have alot to learn but what I have learned is this. We are a long, long, long way from equality in our country.

Not less than 100 years ago black men in Mississippi  could  and would be charged and convicted of crimes committed by white men. Black men could be killed by white men with no repercussions. Laws were created specifically to target people of color and break apart their families, just like in the days of the slave trade when they would sell family members to the furthest corners of the map away from each other.

People want the  African American community to clean up their act and have better family units and communities when the system has been tearing these things apart on purpose since they have been in this country. And it has happened on multiple levels.

So I have a problem when people aren't willing to admit that their is indeed discrimination within the system. No one is saying anything about individuals. The fact that comes up irks me a bit. Nowhere have I called anyone a racist and to take that from what I am saying is a bit ridiculous. There is a problem and the you can only fix a problem if you acknowledge it exists. 
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My argument has and always will be that since I'm a police officer and the "system" is racist I automatically get labeled with a broad brush as part of the problem and a racist. It irks me equally as much that I get painted with that broad term and I'll fight like hell to argue against that.

I've seen several of my African-American brothers in blue be called "Uncle Tom" and a "trader" all because they chose to do something with their lives and not let the "system" beat them. So who's the racist in that situation? And we're talking about guys and gals that grew up in bad areas as well and made a choice to do something with their lives. 

I never argued that the courts aren't racist or the system as a whole may be racist. I'm being very specific with my issue and that's labeling the police on the street as racist. Don't use the term law enforcement so loosely then. Be specific with where your blame lies. When a certain presidential candidate, Bernie Sanders, literally says, "Be respectful with the police so you don't get shot in the back of the head" that is only aimed at the patrol officer on the street and continuing to push a B.S. narrative that is something that happens everyday in America because it simply isn't true. And Biden's done it, and Warren's done it as well. Are there examples out there? Sure there are, but there are statistics out there that state on a daily basis 99.9% of interactions with law enforcement end well and safely and that's part of the FBI national study on this very topic. 

Here is another article that maybe gives better cites than the last one. Force Science Institute is a VERY respectable institution. https://www.forcescience.org/2019/08/researchers-find-no-racial-disparity-in-police-deadly-forceand-thats-just-the-beginning/

 
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BIGREDIOWAN said:
My argument has and always will be that since I'm a police officer and the "system" is racist I automatically get labeled with a broad brush as part of the problem and a racist. It irks me equally as much that I get painted with that broad term and I'll fight like hell to argue against that.

I've seen several of my African-American brothers in blue be called "Uncle Tom" and a "trader" all because they chose to do something with their lives and not let the "system" beat them. So who's the racist in that situation? And we're talking about guys and gals that grew up in bad areas as well and made a choice to do something with their lives. 

I never argued that the courts aren't racist or the system as a whole may be racist. I'm being very specific with my issue and that's labeling the police on the street as racist. Don't use the term law enforcement so loosely then. Be specific with where your blame lies. When a certain presidential candidate, Bernie Sanders, literally says, "Be respectful with the police so you don't get shot in the back of the head" that is only aimed at the patrol officer on the street and continuing to push a B.S. narrative that is something that happens everyday in America because it simply isn't true. And Biden's done it, and Warren's done it as well. Are there examples out there? Sure there are, but there are statistics out there that state on a daily basis 99.9% of interactions with law enforcement end well and safely and that's part of the FBI national study on this very topic. 

Here is another article that maybe gives better cites than the last one. Force Science Institute is a VERY respectable institution. https://www.forcescience.org/2019/08/researchers-find-no-racial-disparity-in-police-deadly-forceand-thats-just-the-beginning/
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The thing is law enforcement is a part of the system and that includes the police on the streets. It does not mean you or anyone else is racist, but the fact of the matter is police stop, search, arrest and shoot people of color at a disproportionate rate. Some of these things happen when white counterparts behave in the same way societally. You seem to think every other part of the system is racist but law enforcement isn't a part of that problem. I think that is an equally B.S. narrative. Just because you or your colleagues aren't racist doesn't mean that law enforcement is not also a part of the problem. There is discrimination at every level. 

Your definition of very respectable and mine are a bit different. FSI is known to have never not sided with the police in any matter. There have been questions about the reliability of the information they present.

 
BIGREDIOWAN said:
Force Science Institute is a VERY respectable institution.
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It's a pretty controversial source. The founder, William J. Lewinski, has testified at dozens of police-involved shooting trials, and is an expert at getting charges against officers dropped.

NY Times

A former Minnesota State professor, he says his testimony and training are based on hard science, but his research has been roundly criticized by experts. An editor for The American Journal of Psychology called his work “pseudoscience.” The Justice Department denounced his findings as “lacking in both foundation and reliability.” Civil rights lawyers say he is selling dangerous ideas.

Many policing experts are for hire, but Dr. Lewinski is unique in that he conducts his own research, trains officers and internal investigators, and testifies at trial. In the protests that have followed police shootings, demonstrators have often asked why officers are so rarely punished for shootings that seem unwarranted. Dr. Lewinski is part of the answer.
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There are quite a few resources which show this guy is not an unbiased source, and is not using proper scientific methods or peer-reviewed methods in his work.

Citing him on police violence would be the same as asking BLM to give expert testimony. You're not getting unbiased information.

 
@BIGREDIOWAN Not to add more fuel to the fire, but the headline and first paragraph of that article alone make me do a double take. Those are not the way you lead an unbiased article... I'll read the rest later tonight, but those are red flags.

 
knapplc said:
It's a pretty controversial source. The founder, William J. Lewinski, has testified at dozens of police-involved shooting trials, and is an expert at getting charges against officers dropped.

NY Times

There are quite a few resources which show this guy is not an unbiased source, and is not using proper scientific methods or peer-reviewed methods in his work.

Citing him on police violence would be the same as asking BLM to give expert testimony. You're not getting unbiased information.
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Sounds good  :thumbs

 
Jesus.

If this happened to some random white kid people would be losing their damn minds.


According to the lawsuit, the officers shouted at Butler to put his hands up and get down. He complied and did not resist, the suit states.

Several officers forced Butler to the snowy ground as he was handcuffed, with one putting his knee on the student's back and another pressing on his neck. One of the officers squatted down in front of him, put a gun to his forehead and said, "If you keep moving, I'm going to blow your f------ head off," the suit says.
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