QB depth

[Saunders]

And ANYONE who says Martinez is a great thrower, needs to get their eyes checked.

This is part of the problem in threads like this. Nobody in this entire discussion claimed Martinez is a great thrower. Nobody, on either side of the argument, has tried to argue that Martinez is a great thrower. So, who are you talking to?

Bingo. People have said he's not a bad thrower. That is not the same thing as saying he's a great thrower. He's not. He never will be. But for our offense, (or any of Dr. Tom's) it's not what we need. It's simply not this type of offense. Frazier was an OK passer, and Frost had a horrible throwing motion... yet they both won Championships.

Taylor certainly needs to improve in his reads, and touch, but again.... Redshirt Freshman.

 

[knapplc]

I'm not calling you a Martinez lover. You've made it clear that you don't care who starts. That's not my argument. My argument is that he's not a good passer. You provided KC Joyner stats. They do paint him in a good light. However, looking beyond that, answer me this: Does your heart skip a beat every time every time Martinez drops back for a pass, or are you confident in him to throw the ball like we were with Zach Taylor (or even Ganz sometimes). Do you think he's at a high enough skill level in the mold he is (I'll say... 30% pass, 70% run?) to give us the most success with the players around him? I don't think so. Again, this goes back to my pro style offense advocacy. And like I said, when I say "good passer" I'm comparing him to a drop-back passer. I don't care what the Joyner stats look like, he is NOT a good drop back passer. Is he better throwing in some situations than some passers? Probably. But overall, he is not a good passer by the standards I'm using.

In terms of running skill, that's a thing I think he actually can improve on, but needs work. A lot of it will come only from experience in not taking stupid sacks and gaining better field vision.

The statements about his characters are far from made up preconceived notions. His demeanor in interviews is indicative of the kind of person he is, I know that from being around him. Judging by his demeanor in interviews, being standoffish and borderline cocky, would you think he's a good leader? And Cody Green, the one person OUTSIDE of the program who doesn't stand to lose anything by being honest, said Martinez was distant and quiet.

Does my heart skip a beat when Taylor passes? Most of the time, yes. He was a Redshirt Freshman, and I'd feel the same way when Carnes goes back to pass if he gets the nod this year.

The problem with the angle that you're coming at this from is that we don't - and won't - run a pro-style passing attack. If you start from that angle and maintain that frame of mind, of course you're never going to be remotely comfortable with Martinez as our QB. The trick is to look at how he's used in the context of our offense. If we use what skills he has as a passer in the right way, he can be very effective. Comparing him to Zac Taylor is unfair, as they were in entirely different offenses, with entirely different skill sets. I would be as scared watching Zac run an option offense as I would be watching Taylor run a pro passing offense. Yet even still, Taylor's QB rating was better in his first year starting (138.8) than Zac's (115.9). That is a significant stat, considering that passing is NOT Martinez' strong suit. Martinez is a capable passer, and hopefully will improve from his Freshman year - in fact, it would be astounding if he did not. But used correctly he has the skills to be effective throwing the ball.

I'm not going to engage in any more debates about Martinez' character. If you've talked to him once that's more times than I've talked to him. I've talked to Bo and Beck and Brown and some other guys and I've read several interviews from both Bo and Beck that say Martinez is fine. I'm happy with that. I also know that he doesn't have to be friendly or nice or anything at all, as long as he can get the offense into the end zone. We've had guys on the team in decades past who were hated by the rest of the team off the field, but on the field they meshed well and were successful. That's all we need from Martinez. If the guys around him actually like him that's gravy, but not necessary.

 

[Igetbored216]

And ANYONE who says Martinez is a great thrower, needs to get their eyes checked.

This is part of the problem in threads like this. Nobody in this entire discussion claimed Martinez is a great thrower. Nobody, on either side of the argument, has tried to argue that Martinez is a great thrower. So, who are you talking to?

Well, I didn't quote anyone as to saying that so my guess would be no one in this thread said that and I was talking in general terms. I have heard many people say that he is a great thrower and used evidence such as his high school throwing stats and games such as Okie St. In reality, he isn't a great thrower. I wouldn't even call him a good or average thrower. He's highly inaccurate, especially on the run, and his decision making is very bad. Again, yes, he was a rFr last year and I will say once again, he will be a rSo this year. His decision making will be a bit better, but I wouldn't expect huge, drastic changes.

As my original statement said, I am highly concerned about the QB position this year.

 

[Igetbored216]

Bingo. People have said he's not a bad thrower. That is not the same thing as saying he's a great thrower. He's not. He never will be. But for our offense, (or any of Dr. Tom's) it's not what we need. It's simply not this type of offense. Frazier was an OK passer, and Frost had a horrible throwing motion... yet they both won Championships.

Taylor certainly needs to improve in his reads, and touch, but again.... Redshirt Freshman.

What do you mean by the bold statement above? Other than what the coaches have said, which hasn't been much, what exactly is "our type" of offense? Based upon what he did as the "Passing Game Coordinator" at Kansas, I would say that passing would be pretty important in that offense. Especially passing on the run. Is that the type of offense that will be run? I don't know, but that's my point. Nobody really does at this point except the coaching staff. It's all guesses for everyone else right now.

 

[Hercules]

Bingo. People have said he's not a bad thrower. That is not the same thing as saying he's a great thrower. He's not. He never will be. But for our offense, (or any of Dr. Tom's) it's not what we need. It's simply not this type of offense. Frazier was an OK passer, and Frost had a horrible throwing motion... yet they both won Championships.

Taylor certainly needs to improve in his reads, and touch, but again.... Redshirt Freshman.

What do you mean by the bold statement above? Other than what the coaches have said, which hasn't been much, what exactly is "our type" of offense? Based upon what he did as the "Passing Game Coordinator" at Kansas, I would say that passing would be pretty important in that offense. Especially passing on the run. Is that the type of offense that will be run? I don't know, but that's my point. Nobody really does at this point except the coaching staff. It's all guesses for everyone else right now.

There is a lot of guesswork, but I think everyone is in agreement that the offense they are going to run is tailored to Taylor Martinez's strengths. We've known that since before the new recruiting class arrived on campus.

At this point, I'm honestly not worried about the backfield on offense. Rex will be solid, we have good running backs coming in, and Martinez will be a year older, a year more practiced, and hopefully healthy. If he is healthy, I don't have any trouble believing that he is going to be able to play his role. There are much bigger question marks on the offensive line and at wide receiver. I think Martinez will be able to play his role. He's not going to be Peyton Manning, but that's not what we need.

 

[The Dude]

There's just so many words in here.

 

[Danimal]

Taylor did OK pre-injury, he made young-qb goofs but that was to be expected. After he seemed shellshocked and couldn't handle the rush. Shouldn't have been in there. Question is whether he stays healthy and whether he's matured as a qb. I don't know. But I don't think it's pie-eyed optimism to think TM can get the job done considering he did OK pre-injury and he'll have had a year plus some expert tutoring under his belt.

 

[Saunders]

And ANYONE who says Martinez is a great thrower, needs to get their eyes checked.

This is part of the problem in threads like this. Nobody in this entire discussion claimed Martinez is a great thrower. Nobody, on either side of the argument, has tried to argue that Martinez is a great thrower. So, who are you talking to?

Well, I didn't quote anyone as to saying that so my guess would be no one in this thread said that and I was talking in general terms. I have heard many people say that he is a great thrower and used evidence such as his high school throwing stats and games such as Okie St. In reality, he isn't a great thrower. I wouldn't even call him a good or average thrower. He's highly inaccurate, especially on the run, and his decision making is very bad. Again, yes, he was a rFr last year and I will say once again, he will be a rSo this year. His decision making will be a bit better, but I wouldn't expect huge, drastic changes.

As my original statement said, I am highly concerned about the QB position this year.

So generally, you've heard alot of people say Taylor is a great thrower? Riiiight. If the people you hang out with (because it's never been said on this or any other board I've seen) are saying he's a great thrower, I suggest you find new friends, because they must be functionally retarded.

I can safely say that I've never heard a single person say that. Not once. Adequate? I've heard that quite often. But never great.

And if you say he's not a good or average thrower, then what would you call Eric Crouch, Scott Frost, or Tommie Frazier? Horrible? Pathetic?

Saying Taylor is barely going to improve is just as disingenuous as saying he's going to turn in to Joe Montana by game 1. We simple don't know. Let's see what Beck is able to accomplish before we completely dismiss him. If by game 2 it's quite apparent that he hasn't progressed,then maybe it's time to look for another option.

 

[bshirt]

The thought of Martinez beating out Lee last year left me wondering a bit. After all, Martinez had ZERO experience and had just shown a few flashes of good in spring ball. When I saw him run in his first TD in the opener I was like, WOW, this kid is AWESOME. Not saying that it would happen for sure, but I would at least wait and see what Carnes did before I dismissed the season simply due to an injury to Martinez.

God help you for posting that.

Unless you run like a 3-toed sloth and need a sun dial to decide where to throw the ball you'll never be the "game manager" qb that 99% of posters here pine for. Going 3& out all year long is what most demand and that is simply not open for debate.

I hope you survive......

 

[GMoose]

I'm not calling you a Martinez lover. You've made it clear that you don't care who starts. That's not my argument. My argument is that he's not a good passer. You provided KC Joyner stats. They do paint him in a good light. However, looking beyond that, answer me this: Does your heart skip a beat every time every time Martinez drops back for a pass, or are you confident in him to throw the ball like we were with Zach Taylor (or even Ganz sometimes). Do you think he's at a high enough skill level in the mold he is (I'll say... 30% pass, 70% run?) to give us the most success with the players around him? I don't think so. Again, this goes back to my pro style offense advocacy. And like I said, when I say "good passer" I'm comparing him to a drop-back passer. I don't care what the Joyner stats look like, he is NOT a good drop back passer. Is he better throwing in some situations than some passers? Probably. But overall, he is not a good passer by the standards I'm using.

In terms of running skill, that's a thing I think he actually can improve on, but needs work. A lot of it will come only from experience in not taking stupid sacks and gaining better field vision.

The statements about his characters are far from made up preconceived notions. His demeanor in interviews is indicative of the kind of person he is, I know that from being around him. Judging by his demeanor in interviews, being standoffish and borderline cocky, would you think he's a good leader? And Cody Green, the one person OUTSIDE of the program who doesn't stand to lose anything by being honest, said Martinez was distant and quiet.

Does my heart skip a beat when Taylor passes? Most of the time, yes. He was a Redshirt Freshman, and I'd feel the same way when Carnes goes back to pass if he gets the nod this year.

The problem with the angle that you're coming at this from is that we don't - and won't - run a pro-style passing attack. If you start from that angle and maintain that frame of mind, of course you're never going to be remotely comfortable with Martinez as our QB. The trick is to look at how he's used in the context of our offense. If we use what skills he has as a passer in the right way, he can be very effective. Comparing him to Zac Taylor is unfair, as they were in entirely different offenses, with entirely different skill sets. I would be as scared watching Zac run an option offense as I would be watching Taylor run a pro passing offense. Yet even still, Taylor's QB rating was better in his first year starting (138.8) than Zac's (115.9). That is a significant stat, considering that passing is NOT Martinez' strong suit. Martinez is a capable passer, and hopefully will improve from his Freshman year - in fact, it would be astounding if he did not. But used correctly he has the skills to be effective throwing the ball.

I'm not going to engage in any more debates about Martinez' character. If you've talked to him once that's more times than I've talked to him. I've talked to Bo and Beck and Brown and some other guys and I've read several interviews from both Bo and Beck that say Martinez is fine. I'm happy with that. I also know that he doesn't have to be friendly or nice or anything at all, as long as he can get the offense into the end zone. We've had guys on the team in decades past who were hated by the rest of the team off the field, but on the field they meshed well and were successful. That's all we need from Martinez. If the guys around him actually like him that's gravy, but not necessary.

Now we are finally on the same page. Like I said, I'm biased because I'd like to see a more balanced attacked. We concludes my original point...that Martinez is not an adequate enough passer to give us a truly balanced attack, which is concerning to me for predictability reason. Hopefully Beck utilized Martinez and the rest of our teams' strengths better than Watson did.

 

[Hercules]

I'm not calling you a Martinez lover. You've made it clear that you don't care who starts. That's not my argument. My argument is that he's not a good passer. You provided KC Joyner stats. They do paint him in a good light. However, looking beyond that, answer me this: Does your heart skip a beat every time every time Martinez drops back for a pass, or are you confident in him to throw the ball like we were with Zach Taylor (or even Ganz sometimes). Do you think he's at a high enough skill level in the mold he is (I'll say... 30% pass, 70% run?) to give us the most success with the players around him? I don't think so. Again, this goes back to my pro style offense advocacy. And like I said, when I say "good passer" I'm comparing him to a drop-back passer. I don't care what the Joyner stats look like, he is NOT a good drop back passer. Is he better throwing in some situations than some passers? Probably. But overall, he is not a good passer by the standards I'm using.

In terms of running skill, that's a thing I think he actually can improve on, but needs work. A lot of it will come only from experience in not taking stupid sacks and gaining better field vision.

The statements about his characters are far from made up preconceived notions. His demeanor in interviews is indicative of the kind of person he is, I know that from being around him. Judging by his demeanor in interviews, being standoffish and borderline cocky, would you think he's a good leader? And Cody Green, the one person OUTSIDE of the program who doesn't stand to lose anything by being honest, said Martinez was distant and quiet.

Does my heart skip a beat when Taylor passes? Most of the time, yes. He was a Redshirt Freshman, and I'd feel the same way when Carnes goes back to pass if he gets the nod this year.

The problem with the angle that you're coming at this from is that we don't - and won't - run a pro-style passing attack. If you start from that angle and maintain that frame of mind, of course you're never going to be remotely comfortable with Martinez as our QB. The trick is to look at how he's used in the context of our offense. If we use what skills he has as a passer in the right way, he can be very effective. Comparing him to Zac Taylor is unfair, as they were in entirely different offenses, with entirely different skill sets. I would be as scared watching Zac run an option offense as I would be watching Taylor run a pro passing offense. Yet even still, Taylor's QB rating was better in his first year starting (138.8) than Zac's (115.9). That is a significant stat, considering that passing is NOT Martinez' strong suit. Martinez is a capable passer, and hopefully will improve from his Freshman year - in fact, it would be astounding if he did not. But used correctly he has the skills to be effective throwing the ball.

I'm not going to engage in any more debates about Martinez' character. If you've talked to him once that's more times than I've talked to him. I've talked to Bo and Beck and Brown and some other guys and I've read several interviews from both Bo and Beck that say Martinez is fine. I'm happy with that. I also know that he doesn't have to be friendly or nice or anything at all, as long as he can get the offense into the end zone. We've had guys on the team in decades past who were hated by the rest of the team off the field, but on the field they meshed well and were successful. That's all we need from Martinez. If the guys around him actually like him that's gravy, but not necessary.

Now we are finally on the same page. Like I said, I'm biased because I'd like to see a more balanced attacked. We concludes my original point...that Martinez is not an adequate enough passer to give us a truly balanced attack, which is concerning to me for predictability reason. Hopefully Beck utilized Martinez and the rest of our teams' strengths better than Watson did.

In the OP at least, you said you advocated for a pro-style attack, which is different from what you are saying now, that you'd like to see a more balanced attack. I think everyone would like to see a balanced attack one way or another. However, we're not going to be running a pro-style offense, so Martinez doesn't need to be that kind of QB. He does need to be adequate in order for us to achieve balance - and I do think he is an adequate enough passer to allow us to achieve balance. He's just not going to do it as a pocket passer in the pro-style offense - we're going to find another way.

 

[knapplc]

That makes me wonder how much of the Martinez dislike simply comes from the fact that he's not a pro-style QB, which makes me wonder how many people over the age of, say, 30 have these same concerns. It would seem that those of us old enough to vividly remember the 80s and 90s are more likely to be unconcerned with such things, having seen a number of run-first QBs succeed.

The funny thing is, the same biases against run-first quarterbacks that were being exhibited by the pundits in the 90s exist today, and just like the 90s, they are completely misplaced in college football. Run-first QBs can succeed today, just like they could then.

The most successful class in college football history, the Huskers who went 60-3 in their five-year careers, came from a run-first offensive philosophy. And they did it in an era where it was "impossible" to succeed doing it that way.

 

[GMoose]

I'm not calling you a Martinez lover. You've made it clear that you don't care who starts. That's not my argument. My argument is that he's not a good passer. You provided KC Joyner stats. They do paint him in a good light. However, looking beyond that, answer me this: Does your heart skip a beat every time every time Martinez drops back for a pass, or are you confident in him to throw the ball like we were with Zach Taylor (or even Ganz sometimes). Do you think he's at a high enough skill level in the mold he is (I'll say... 30% pass, 70% run?) to give us the most success with the players around him? I don't think so. Again, this goes back to my pro style offense advocacy. And like I said, when I say "good passer" I'm comparing him to a drop-back passer. I don't care what the Joyner stats look like, he is NOT a good drop back passer. Is he better throwing in some situations than some passers? Probably. But overall, he is not a good passer by the standards I'm using.

In terms of running skill, that's a thing I think he actually can improve on, but needs work. A lot of it will come only from experience in not taking stupid sacks and gaining better field vision.

The statements about his characters are far from made up preconceived notions. His demeanor in interviews is indicative of the kind of person he is, I know that from being around him. Judging by his demeanor in interviews, being standoffish and borderline cocky, would you think he's a good leader? And Cody Green, the one person OUTSIDE of the program who doesn't stand to lose anything by being honest, said Martinez was distant and quiet.

Does my heart skip a beat when Taylor passes? Most of the time, yes. He was a Redshirt Freshman, and I'd feel the same way when Carnes goes back to pass if he gets the nod this year.

The problem with the angle that you're coming at this from is that we don't - and won't - run a pro-style passing attack. If you start from that angle and maintain that frame of mind, of course you're never going to be remotely comfortable with Martinez as our QB. The trick is to look at how he's used in the context of our offense. If we use what skills he has as a passer in the right way, he can be very effective. Comparing him to Zac Taylor is unfair, as they were in entirely different offenses, with entirely different skill sets. I would be as scared watching Zac run an option offense as I would be watching Taylor run a pro passing offense. Yet even still, Taylor's QB rating was better in his first year starting (138.8) than Zac's (115.9). That is a significant stat, considering that passing is NOT Martinez' strong suit. Martinez is a capable passer, and hopefully will improve from his Freshman year - in fact, it would be astounding if he did not. But used correctly he has the skills to be effective throwing the ball.

I'm not going to engage in any more debates about Martinez' character. If you've talked to him once that's more times than I've talked to him. I've talked to Bo and Beck and Brown and some other guys and I've read several interviews from both Bo and Beck that say Martinez is fine. I'm happy with that. I also know that he doesn't have to be friendly or nice or anything at all, as long as he can get the offense into the end zone. We've had guys on the team in decades past who were hated by the rest of the team off the field, but on the field they meshed well and were successful. That's all we need from Martinez. If the guys around him actually like him that's gravy, but not necessary.

Now we are finally on the same page. Like I said, I'm biased because I'd like to see a more balanced attacked. We concludes my original point...that Martinez is not an adequate enough passer to give us a truly balanced attack, which is concerning to me for predictability reason. Hopefully Beck utilized Martinez and the rest of our teams' strengths better than Watson did.

In the OP at least, you said you advocated for a pro-style attack, which is different from what you are saying now, that you'd like to see a more balanced attack. I think everyone would like to see a balanced attack one way or another. However, we're not going to be running a pro-style offense, so Martinez doesn't need to be that kind of QB. He does need to be adequate in order for us to achieve balance - and I do think he is an adequate enough passer to allow us to achieve balance. He's just not going to do it as a pocket passer in the pro-style offense - we're going to find another way.

My bad I guess for not specifying. I'd like to see balanced in terms of run/pass ability. An offense with the ability to attack through the air if the run game is struggling, and vice versa. If the passing game gets shut down, no problem, but if the run gets shut down, Martinez isn't going to be bailing us out. I want pro style so that we can have balance.

 

[Igetbored216]

So generally, you've heard alot of people say Taylor is a great thrower? Riiiight. If the people you hang out with (because it's never been said on this or any other board I've seen) are saying he's a great thrower, I suggest you find new friends, because they must be functionally retarded.

I can safely say that I've never heard a single person say that. Not once. Adequate? I've heard that quite often. But never great.

And if you say he's not a good or average thrower, then what would you call Eric Crouch, Scott Frost, or Tommie Frazier? Horrible? Pathetic?

Saying Taylor is barely going to improve is just as disingenuous as saying he's going to turn in to Joe Montana by game 1. We simple don't know. Let's see what Beck is able to accomplish before we completely dismiss him. If by game 2 it's quite apparent that he hasn't progressed,then maybe it's time to look for another option.

Who said they are people I hang out with? I talk to alot of people and I have heard this numerous times. "Great" thrower and then Okie St and his high school football days are referenced. So, I guess I don't really know what to tell you.

We can say we simply don't know about anything this year, cause we don't know ANYTHING that will happen. You can be right about everything at this stage in the season if you just say "we don't know", but in my opinion, the point of a discussion board at this stage of the season is to discuss things........they may or may not happen, but that's not the point. From what I have seen from him and in my opinion, he will not drastically different than what he did last season.

 

[zoogs]

I don't think a comparison to either Darron Thomas or Cam Newton is apt.

With Thomas, it could change this year I suppose, but that is a player who made his zone reads, just as one example of the 'total package' side of being a QB (I'm sure his acceleration is not as good as Taylor's).

Making those zone reads is something that Rex Burkhead, a second-year player at a different position, was also able to do, actually since his true freshman year if I remember correctly. I guess it isn't that complicated, but the light just needs to come on, and hopefully it has for Taylor this offseason. Then he can get to the other quarterbacking aspects.

Neither Thomas nor Newton are great passers and they, along with players like Locker or Young or Pryor or Troy Smith or Nate Davis, will always get criticism in this area. You could argue then that the criticism is against an unreasonable, and probably a next-level standard. In Taylor's case, it's just against a D1 standard. We can all agree that he was a redshirt freshman and that he has a chance of reaching that level, though. Taylor is very new to his position so it's not really his fault. He's not the athletic guy who is a bit quirky in his mechanics; he's the guy that has barely scratched the surface of how to run an offense at this level, and will need a lot of time and work just to get to be that athletic guy who is quirky with his mechanics.

The plus-side, is that his athleticism blows those other guys out of the water, for the most part.