QB depth

[bshirt]

That makes me wonder how much of the Martinez dislike simply comes from the fact that he's not a pro-style QB, which makes me wonder how many people over the age of, say, 30 have these same concerns. It would seem that those of us old enough to vividly remember the 80s and 90s are more likely to be unconcerned with such things, having seen a number of run-first QBs succeed.

The funny thing is, the same biases against run-first quarterbacks that were being exhibited by the pundits in the 90s exist today, and just like the 90s, they are completely misplaced in college football. Run-first QBs can succeed today, just like they could then.

The most successful class in college football history, the Huskers who went 60-3 in their five-year careers, came from a run-first offensive philosophy. And they did it in an era where it was "impossible" to succeed doing it that way.

I think that's a very, very good point.

The old geezers like me don't overly worry about Tmart's passing qualities because we've seen NU for decades crush opponents like bugs with qbs like Crouch, Frazier, Frost, etc who were all at best marginal pocket passers. Actually "very" marginal. Their passing stats while small were efficient due to them only having to hit wide-open wrs on PA that simply didn't require a Joe Montana. Oh boy, they were WIDE open so frequently. Yeah, Tmart isn't going to be a D. Marino but can he pass the ball as well as those guys? No sweat.....

The younger posters haven't seen those offenses steamroll opponents into dust and so of course go what they've seen in the Callahan & SW years (last seven years). For that they're perfectly correct that a good pocket passer is essential to success and a Tmart would be hopeless. Again, for the WCO or something similar they're probably on the money.

No one knows what kind of offense we'll run but by all indications we'll be a run-first scheme that hangs our hat on being able to do just that. "If" that's true, a good pocket passer like Z. Taylor just couldn't hack it. But if not, he could excel.

I really think that's a major pivot point that we all argue about our qbs strengths or downfalls.. Heh, as we don't really know for sure what we're gonna run it's probable none of us will change our minds. :corndance

GBR!!

 

[BigWillie]

I think that's a very, very good point.

The old geezers like me don't overly worry about Tmart's passing qualities because we've seen NU for decades crush opponents like bugs with qbs like Crouch, Frazier, Frost, etc who were all at best marginal pocket passers. Actually "very" marginal. Their passing stats while small were efficient due to them only having to hit wide-open wrs on PA that simply didn't require a Joe Montana. Oh boy, they were WIDE open so frequently. Yeah, Tmart isn't going to be a D. Marino but can he pass the ball as well as those guys? No sweat.....

That is fine and all, but this isn't the early 90's. This isn't a S&C program that is 10 steps ahead of every other in the country. This isn't a Tom Osborne offense. And this isn't a Milt Tenopir coached offensive line.

You cannot live on the past and expect it to be able to predict the future. Reality is that when we were on top, we had so many advantages over our opponents it was unreal. We had a genius leading our offense in Osborne. We had without question the top S&C program in the country, BY FAR. We had the best OL coach in the country. And we had a pretty good player or two on those squads.

Now, we don't have that offensive genius. We don't have, IMO, even a good offensive line coach. We have a good S&C program, but not a great one. And the talent level isn't that high on our offensive line.

Even more, Taylor isn't the kind of tough, rugged runner who can take a consistent beating in the way guys like Frazier, Frost, Crouch, Lord, etc., did. As good of runners as those guys were in our old offense, they do not get as much credit as they deserve for being absolute warriors taking the beating in the way they did. Taylor has a game built almost solely off his speed and finding a wide running lane. He isn't the best instinctive runner, or even a runner who can grind out an extra yard or two the way our old QBs could.

The days of just running over folks like we once did are gone. To expect that to happen again is unrealistic, and just a fantasy for any of us.

Can it happen again? Yeah. And tomorrow I may wake up with a naked Kate Upton laying next to me, too.

 

[knapplc]

That is fine and all, but this isn't the early 90's. This isn't a S&C program that is 10 steps ahead of every other in the country. This isn't a Tom Osborne offense. And this isn't a Milt Tenopir coached offensive line.

You cannot live on the past and expect it to be able to predict the future. Reality is that when we were on top, we had so many advantages over our opponents it was unreal. We had a genius leading our offense in Osborne. We had without question the top S&C program in the country, BY FAR. We had the best OL coach in the country. And we had a pretty good player or two on those squads.

Now, we don't have that offensive genius. We don't have, IMO, even a good offensive line coach. We have a good S&C program, but not a great one. And the talent level isn't that high on our offensive line.

Even more, Taylor isn't the kind of tough, rugged runner who can take a consistent beating in the way guys like Frazier, Frost, Crouch, Lord, etc., did. As good of runners as those guys were in our old offense, they do not get as much credit as they deserve for being absolute warriors taking the beating in the way they did. Taylor has a game built almost solely off his speed and finding a wide running lane. He isn't the best instinctive runner, or even a runner who can grind out an extra yard or two the way our old QBs could.

The days of just running over folks like we once did are gone. To expect that to happen again is unrealistic, and just a fantasy for any of us.

Can it happen again? Yeah. And tomorrow I may wake up with a naked Kate Upton laying next to me, too.

But isn't what you're saying (and you're not wrong) true of any offense we run, no matter what it is, who we have, etc? It is extremely unlikely that we ever have a coach the equivalent of Osborne, or the advantages we had with Epley as S&C Coach, etc. So what you're saying isn't exactly a knock against the run-first offense, it's a knock against any offense, isn't it? Wouldn't the disadvantages of not being in the 90s be the same no matter what offense we run?

And further, wouldn't we have even greater disadvantages today trying to run the same offense everyone else is running, thus competing for the same players in recruiting? The genius of Osborne wasn't only in his game-day scheming, it was also because he knew that he could corner the market on Option players since everyone else was recruiting to a pro-style offense. So if we ran a different offense (not necessarily the Option, but any somewhat unique offense), wouldn't that give us an advantage?

 

[Hercules]

I think that's a very, very good point.

The old geezers like me don't overly worry about Tmart's passing qualities because we've seen NU for decades crush opponents like bugs with qbs like Crouch, Frazier, Frost, etc who were all at best marginal pocket passers. Actually "very" marginal. Their passing stats while small were efficient due to them only having to hit wide-open wrs on PA that simply didn't require a Joe Montana. Oh boy, they were WIDE open so frequently. Yeah, Tmart isn't going to be a D. Marino but can he pass the ball as well as those guys? No sweat.....

That is fine and all, but this isn't the early 90's. This isn't a S&C program that is 10 steps ahead of every other in the country. This isn't a Tom Osborne offense. And this isn't a Milt Tenopir coached offensive line.

You cannot live on the past and expect it to be able to predict the future. Reality is that when we were on top, we had so many advantages over our opponents it was unreal. We had a genius leading our offense in Osborne. We had without question the top S&C program in the country, BY FAR. We had the best OL coach in the country. And we had a pretty good player or two on those squads.

Now, we don't have that offensive genius. We don't have, IMO, even a good offensive line coach. We have a good S&C program, but not a great one. And the talent level isn't that high on our offensive line.

Even more, Taylor isn't the kind of tough, rugged runner who can take a consistent beating in the way guys like Frazier, Frost, Crouch, Lord, etc., did. As good of runners as those guys were in our old offense, they do not get as much credit as they deserve for being absolute warriors taking the beating in the way they did. Taylor has a game built almost solely off his speed and finding a wide running lane. He isn't the best instinctive runner, or even a runner who can grind out an extra yard or two the way our old QBs could.

The days of just running over folks like we once did are gone. To expect that to happen again is unrealistic, and just a fantasy for any of us.

Can it happen again? Yeah. And tomorrow I may wake up with a naked Kate Upton laying next to me, too.

I would agree that Martinez could use some work on his running style. I think if he got lower, and did more to adjust his path to avoid direct contact from his tacklers, he wouldn't expose himself to nasty hits or injuries quite as much.

However, Martinez took the beating last year until he got injured. And sometimes QBs get injured. Tommie Frazier had sort of a freak injury with that blood clot, but he also went out of a game or two in 1995 with a thigh bruise or something (can't quite remember). Then Brook Berringer would come in, and in 1994, he took a beating in his first couple of games and got some broken ribs. Then Matt Turman came in and we had to rely on our offensive line, running backs, and defense to get the job done, and it worked.

Sometimes guys get injured - it has nothing to do with whether they're "tough" or not. I do think Martinez should watch some film of running backs, or even of Eric Crouch, who was very good at staying low and delivering as much punishment as he took. But I don't think last year should be used as an indictment of Martinez's ability to make it through a season and take a beating any more than 2009 should be used to say the same about Rex Burkhead.

Furthermore, bshirt's main point was simply that we know quarterbacks like Martinez will be successful in the right system, and we know that particular type of system has been successful at Nebraska in the past. Not only that, but we know that type of system (run-first option football) has been successful all over the college football landscape more recently (2005 Texas, 2006 Florida, 2008 Florida, 2010 Auburn/Oregon).

You're right about the fact that we don't have an experienced offensive mastermind like Tom Osborne (even though he was once as untested as Tim Beck is), and we don't have an offensive line system like the one they had put together in the 90's (although moving to two OL coaches and an OL intern shows they're trying to get there), and our talent isn't close to as high on the offensive line as it was in the 90's (though they've made that position a priority in recruiting over the past 2 years...).

Nobody on this board thinks the 90's run is ever going to happen again, that we can go 60-3 in 5 years with 3 national championships. But no team is ever going to do that again, no matter what offensive system they run - there's just too much parity with the 85-scholarship limit. Those 90's Nebraska teams weren't just the best teams in the country, they were FAR AND AWAY the best teams in the country. They crushed #2 and #3 teams in the country routinely. Nobody really thinks that can ever happen again, but it's ridiculous to think that a run-first option football offense can't get us to the 9-10 win per season level of consistency that Osborne had, and every now and then have a special run at the national championship. Even last year, with a unit that fell apart because of lack of QB depth, we managed to get to 10 wins with a poorly designed run-first option football offense.

One thing that hasn't changed since the 90's: There are still people who say that run-first option football doesn't work.

 

[kchusker_chris]

The younger posters haven't seen those offenses steamroll opponents into dust and so of course go what they've seen in the Callahan & SW years (last seven years). For that they're perfectly correct that a good pocket passer is essential to success and a Tmart would be hopeless. Again, for the WCO or something similar they're probably on the money.

I read The Blind Side this weekend and there were numerous mentions to the west coast offense and Bill Walsh - including interviews and quotes with him. (the book concentrated more heavily on the "evolution of the game" than the movie)

What is ironic is that Walsh specifically mentions the lack of a solid passing quarterback as the reason the WCO was invented. It was 1968, and he was with the Bengals, an expansion team with crappy players. Carter, his QB, was a moderately accurate passer and very moblie - he didn't have a strong arm or the pocket pressence to be effective in a true "pro-style" vertical passing attack. That's where the horizontal passing and quick, shorter throws w/ the field spread originated. He wasn't required to make reads, and he was throwing to where someone should be 3 seconds into the play. The West Coast Offense.

Everyone continues to think that Callahan and SW needed a good pocket passer to have success in the WCO - when in reality the WCO was invented to overcome the lack of such a player.

 

[zoogs]

However, Martinez took the beating last year until he got injured.

I thought that comment was more about his running style than his durability. Martinez took a beating because he didn't really know how to protect himself and opened himself up to unnecessarily dangerous hits. He may be a running QB, but his style of play is distinct from the great QBs we have had of the past.

I do not think it is lost on the younger generation, about running QBs. We grew up watching Scott Frost and Eric Crouch and worshipping the beauty of Nebraska's unique offensive attack. But neither is that system in place today. I don't know what kind of offense Beck will build but if its passing tree is what he brings from Kansas, that should give us a good idea of what is expected on that side of the game from the QB position.

 

[knapplc]

However, Martinez took the beating last year until he got injured.

I thought that comment was more about his running style than his durability. Martinez took a beating because he didn't really know how to protect himself and opened himself up to unnecessarily dangerous hits. He may be a running QB, but his style of play is distinct from the great QBs we have had of the past.

I do not think it is lost on the younger generation, about running QBs. We grew up watching Scott Frost and Eric Crouch and worshipping the beauty of Nebraska's unique offensive attack. But neither is that system in place today. I don't know what kind of offense Beck will build but if its passing tree is what he brings from Kansas, that should give us a good idea of what is expected on that side of the game from the QB position.

This is not true. Tommie Frazier is a great example of a guy who took a TON of unnecessary hits as a Freshman. Tommie also had terrible ball security and was often accused of "carrying the ball like a loaf of bread," as if that has any meaning. If I had a dollar for every time I heard that about Tommie in his early years I could retire.

The problem is that Martinez was a Freshman last year, and in comparison to older players he tends to get compared to what people remember the most, which are the highlights of old players' careers, typically the glory runs from their Junior and Senior years.

Martinez was a Freshman and made Freshman mistakes - in passing, running, ball security.... everywhere. So did Frazier and just about every other player who's gotten to contribute as a Freshman.

Martinez is, if anything, a very raw work in progress. Whatever brilliance and whatever ignorance he displayed last year can be explained away by his athleticism and his youth, respectively, and as far as I can tell all arguments are equally valid for brilliance or ignorance. What we have to see is how he assimilates last year and this year's training into the product he puts on the field. Presumably he'll improve, but if not.... Brion Carnes looks capable.

It's just that he's a Freshman, and he'll go through the same Freshman mistakes that Martinez did. And that Frazier did.

 

[The Dude]

Crouch ran pretty straight early in his career. He learned to stay low over time, just as Martinez should. Take enough of those hits, it becomes instinct to protect yourself.

 

[knapplc]

Was Crouch ever a shifty runner? His signature runs were basically around the edge on a big sweeping curve until he got the corner and then he went straight-line down the field, or the blast up the middle, or (his "Heisman" run), the run against Missouri where he veered a couple of times, not that dramatically, and basically outran everyone. His other highlight-reel run was when he blew up that Iowa DB, and that was just power, nothing more. Hell of a run, though.

I recall Martinez making several nifty cuts on his way to the end zone, in traffic against Kansas State and in traffic against W. Kentucky. I may be forgetting but I think his Washington runs were pretty much straight-line runs, weren't they? I just checked out a highlight clip and he did some dipping and dancing against W. Kentucky - that's the run I was thinking of.

Maybe people are forgetting another aspect of Martinez' game that was really impressive - his trickeration with that Zone Read handoff. He had the ability to hold that ball in the RB's gut longer than any other QB I've seen. It really put stress on the DE making the read on the handoff and that ability led to much of his earlier success. It was when opponents made the adjustment of bull-rushing the DT into the backfield that this stopped being as effective, and that's a problem with Caputo as much as anything.

 

[Hunter94]

Was Crouch ever a shifty runner? His signature runs were basically around the edge on a big sweeping curve until he got the corner and then he went straight-line down the field, or the blast up the middle, or (his "Heisman" run), the run against Missouri where he veered a couple of times, not that dramatically, and basically outran everyone. His other highlight-reel run was when he blew up that Iowa DB, and that was just power, nothing more. Hell of a run, though.

I recall Martinez making several nifty cuts on his way to the end zone, in traffic against Kansas State and in traffic against W. Kentucky. I may be forgetting but I think his Washington runs were pretty much straight-line runs, weren't they? I just checked out a highlight clip and he did some dipping and dancing against W. Kentucky - that's the run I was thinking of.

Maybe people are forgetting another aspect of Martinez' game that was really impressive - his trickeration with that Zone Read handoff. He had the ability to hold that ball in the RB's gut longer than any other QB I've seen. It really put stress on the DE making the read on the handoff and that ability led to much of his earlier success. It was when opponents made the adjustment of bull-rushing the DT into the backfield that this stopped being as effective, and that's a problem with Caputo as much as anything.

and once there was defensive penetration, fumbles and indecision set in as well......the line has to get a good push for this kid to find seams and utilize his burst...

 

[bigg10]

Ok, I have read this thread, I have a honest question here. I have seen where you all have talked about many aspects of having a QB run with it and am very impressed at the level of the convo. Things have been talked about such as SC program, arm strength, accuracy and so on.

With that said it would seem to me that what you all are saying is his speed is by far his greatest strength. That would bring up the question, just how fast is he? I mean if he is faster than 99.5% of the kids playing defensive D1 ball, then he is fast. If he is faster than only 80% he is fast but catchable. If he is faster than only 50%, well you get the idea. I also wonder how that works in that type of set up. So if T-mart goes down and #2 steps in, is he just as fast or does he have a better arm and you have to switch up the O to suit whatever Qb is playing?

Gotta stop typing as my opinions are wanting to come out now, and I just want your thoughts on the above questions.

 

[Hercules]

However, Martinez took the beating last year until he got injured.

I thought that comment was more about his running style than his durability. Martinez took a beating because he didn't really know how to protect himself and opened himself up to unnecessarily dangerous hits. He may be a running QB, but his style of play is distinct from the great QBs we have had of the past.

I do not think it is lost on the younger generation, about running QBs. We grew up watching Scott Frost and Eric Crouch and worshipping the beauty of Nebraska's unique offensive attack. But neither is that system in place today. I don't know what kind of offense Beck will build but if its passing tree is what he brings from Kansas, that should give us a good idea of what is expected on that side of the game from the QB position.

I commented on his running style. Martinez does need to improve that, in my opinion. My point was that his running style wasn't necessarily what got him in trouble. Guys get injured sometimes.

We don't know what offense Beck has been installing. I don't know if it's a run-first option attack (he did run the flexbone and spread option offenses when he was a high school coach in Texas) or if it will be something more like what Kansas ran while he was there (although if I recall correctly, Mangino and Warriner both had more input into that offense than Beck did). Either way, I certainly hope that he's installing something that Martinez can be successful in.

 

[Hercules]

Ok, I have read this thread, I have a honest question here. I have seen where you all have talked about many aspects of having a QB run with it and am very impressed at the level of the convo. Things have been talked about such as SC program, arm strength, accuracy and so on.

With that said it would seem to me that what you all are saying is his speed is by far his greatest strength. That would bring up the question, just how fast is he? I mean if he is faster than 99.5% of the kids playing defensive D1 ball, then he is fast. If he is faster than only 80% he is fast but catchable. If he is faster than only 50%, well you get the idea. I also wonder how that works in that type of set up. So if T-mart goes down and #2 steps in, is he just as fast or does he have a better arm and you have to switch up the O to suit whatever Qb is playing?

Gotta stop typing as my opinions are wanting to come out now, and I just want your thoughts on the above questions.

Martinez's greatest strength probably isn't his speed - which is very good, he's just as fast or faster than most D1 skill players - but his explosiveness. His first three steps are breathtaking. In terms of straight-line speed, he probably is faster than about 98% of D1 devensive players. He'll leave most defensive backs in the dust.

If he goes down, #2 is Brion Carnes (we think). Carnes isn't as fast or explosive as Martinez, but he's shifty and has appears to have good instincts. His throwing mechanics look pretty good too, better than Martinez's did last year. Unlike 2010, he is the type of QB that should be able to step in and run the same offense as Martinez. He's not the playmaker that Martinez is running the ball but he's more than capable. You can look at it this way, just in terms of their style of play: if Martinez is Denard Robinson, Carnes is Darron Thomas.

 

[Saunders]

I wasn't directing my post at you, Knap (though I think it's somewhat telling that you would assume it was). Truth be told, Saunders is, to me, the prototypical example of a "Martinez first, Nebraska second" type of fan. At least, that is the impression I get from his passionate defense of Martinez every time the topic is brought up. (Sorry, Saunders.)

This just proves that you don't even read anything that people post, and you just spew pointless drivel that suits whatever the hell your retarded agenda is. I want you to find a single post of mine where I specifically state that I want Taylor Martinez, and Taylor Martinez only, to start. You can't. Why? Because I've never said that. In fact, last year, I was for Lee starting, until the WKU game was in the books. If you actually read what I post, you'd see what I'm getting at. I have not attacked a single person for saying anything negative about Taylor's play on the field. I've attacked the horrible "evidence" or straight up lies that people have made up, and tried to pass as fact.

It's beyond ridiculous that I would even have to defend myself as well. All I've done is shoot down all the bullsh#t that some people (including you) are spreading on this, and other boards. It's funny, because when you guys are backed into a corner and proven wrong...you vanish. You continually say he's selfish, a terrible leader, a teamkiller, whatever, and when people ask you to prove this garbage, you bail, and start a new thread or start pooping all over another one. It's happened over, and over, and over, and over.

Frankly, I'm tired of it. Don't get all butthurt when someone calls you out and asks for evidence when you're trying to pass your entirely unsubstantiated opinion as fact.

Once again, for the 5,000 time. I want the best player to start (I can't believe I'm doing this again). But If your gonna make sh#t up, don't get pissed when you get called out.

:rant

Saunders, the fact that you resort to profanities and personal attacks is where I draw my sense that you are as much or more a fan of Martinez than of the team. You really seem to take it personally when someone criticizes him. Take your above post as evidence of that. Why the anger?

By the way, having an affinity for a player is not necessarily a bad thing that you would have to "defend" yourself against. It's not like being called a bigot. It is totally normal and to be expected. But it does make it difficult for you to be impartial and objective about their weaknesses. Frankly, I would have a hard time being impartial about Rex, I love the kid's attitude so much.

All of you guys swear up and down that you don't care who starts so long as they are the best, but many of you sure froth at the mouth when someone criticizes Martinez. It goes beyond having a calm, adult debate about a player and into personal attacks. I just don't get you guys.

Once again, you completely dodge the question, and try to strawman your way out of it. I haven't personally attacked you in any way. Don't try to spin this into a victim mentality issue. You have perpetuated things as fact that in reality, are sketchy at best. I'm not "frothing at the mouth" because of someone criticizing Martinez. I've done so myself. I've even called for him to lose his job if he doesn't improve. What I'm not going to stand for, is you passsing lies/rumors/innuendo as fact.

And once again,I want you to find a single post of mine where I specifically state that I want Taylor Martinez, and Taylor Martinez only, to start. By not doing so, you've proven my point. You have nothing to stand on, and are deflecting in order to save face.

 

[knapplc]

Ok, I have read this thread, I have a honest question here. I have seen where you all have talked about many aspects of having a QB run with it and am very impressed at the level of the convo. Things have been talked about such as SC program, arm strength, accuracy and so on.

With that said it would seem to me that what you all are saying is his speed is by far his greatest strength. That would bring up the question, just how fast is he? I mean if he is faster than 99.5% of the kids playing defensive D1 ball, then he is fast. If he is faster than only 80% he is fast but catchable. If he is faster than only 50%, well you get the idea. I also wonder how that works in that type of set up. So if T-mart goes down and #2 steps in, is he just as fast or does he have a better arm and you have to switch up the O to suit whatever Qb is playing?

Gotta stop typing as my opinions are wanting to come out now, and I just want your thoughts on the above questions.

Martinez's greatest strength probably isn't his speed - which is very good, he's just as fast or faster than most D1 skill players - but his explosiveness. His first three steps are breathtaking. In terms of straight-line speed, he probably is faster than about 98% of D1 devensive players. He'll leave most defensive backs in the dust.

If he goes down, #2 is Brion Carnes (we think). Carnes isn't as fast or explosive as Martinez, but he's shifty and has appears to have good instincts. His throwing mechanics look pretty good too, better than Martinez's did last year. Unlike 2010, he is the type of QB that should be able to step in and run the same offense as Martinez. He's not the playmaker that Martinez is running the ball but he's more than capable. You can look at it this way, just in terms of their style of play: if Martinez is Denard Robinson, Carnes is Darron Thomas.

And I would add that Carnes is able to run quite adequately, from what we can tell from practice reports, Spring Game and high school film. He looks like he knows what he's doing on his feet.