Camping Out: Quarterbacks

I always hated the option routes in Beck's offense. The hitch, out/in route was one of his favorites, and also one that created many interceptions. If the WR and QB weren't on the same page, the end result was a ball that looked like the QB threw right to the defender.

Another important point is that QBs don't throw to open receivers (normally). QBs throw to spots that will be open based on the defense's coverage and the route the WR is running. For instance, a basic hitch route: WR runs x amount of yards downfield, stops, and takes two steps back toward the LOS. If the QB reads man coverage with two deep, the QB would throw the ball to the WR before he has even stopped and turned around. He wouldn't want to throw it after the WR stopped and turned around, because the defender would be there to pick or swat the ball away. I think this basic idea is the point that BigRedBuster has been trying to make. In the specific play being discussed against Michigan St, the WR wasn't in the right spot, so it looked like Armstrong threw it right to the defender.

Regardless, I hope none of you are expecting Tommy to have some breakout year throwing the ball all over the field. I think 60% completion with limited interceptions would be an impressive feat for him, and should win a lot of games. I am hopeful Riley sticks to "basing the offense off the skills of the current players", rather than trying to run a certain play because it has worked in the past. Many coaches say this - Beck included - but then resort to what they are comfortable with, rather than what their players are comfortable with. The ideal offense, and one that would put the most points up on the board this year, would probably be one based around the jet sweep. Jet sweep is such a great play to base an offense around, because you are able to set up so many other plays from it (play action, option read, reverse, fake with handoff to the RB, etc.).

 
Christian Hackenberg:

55.8% Completion Percentage

2977 Yards Passing

93 rushing Attempts for -94 yards

12 Touchdowns

15 Interceptions

Tommy Armstrong Jr.:

53.3% Completion Percentage

2695 Yards Passing

145 Rushing Attempts for 705 yards

22 Touchdowns

12 Interceptions

Both of these players above are entering their Jr. seasons. One players is ranked #9 in the poll, the other is #37.

Which one, if you were judging blindly on their college football statistics thus far in their career, would you place above the other?

The disparity between the two of these players ranking is ridiculous. The entire poll means jack sh#t. They continually discredit themselves with this love affair for Hackenberg.

Now if you're gonna rate college quarterbacks, then rate college quarterbacks. If you're gonna rate fairyland predictions of who you think might be a star in the NFL someday, then label the poll as that. By the way, Hackenberg better step his game up because in my opinion, he wouldn't be too high in the fairyland poll either.

 
Christian Hackenberg:

55.8% Completion Percentage

2977 Yards Passing

93 rushing Attempts for -94 yards

12 Touchdowns

15 Interceptions

Tommy Armstrong Jr.:

53.3% Completion Percentage

2695 Yards Passing

145 Rushing Attempts for 705 yards

22 Touchdowns

12 Interceptions

Both of these players above are entering their Jr. seasons. One players is ranked #9 in the poll, the other is #37.

Which one, if you were judging blindly on their college football statistics thus far in their career, would you place above the other?

The disparity between the two of these players ranking is ridiculous. The entire poll means jack sh#t. They continually discredit themselves with this love affair for Hackenberg.

Now if you're gonna rate college quarterbacks, then rate college quarterbacks. If you're gonna rate fairyland predictions of who you think might be a star in the NFL someday, then label the poll as that. By the way, Hackenberg better step his game up because in my opinion, he wouldn't be too high in the fairyland poll either.
But, but, but...

He's got measurables and... stuff. He LOOKS like an NFL QB... therefore... he must be one.

Right?

 
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Christian Hackenberg:

55.8% Completion Percentage

2977 Yards Passing

93 rushing Attempts for -94 yards

12 Touchdowns

15 Interceptions

Tommy Armstrong Jr.:

53.3% Completion Percentage

2695 Yards Passing

145 Rushing Attempts for 705 yards

22 Touchdowns

12 Interceptions

Both of these players above are entering their Jr. seasons. One players is ranked #9 in the poll, the other is #37.

Which one, if you were judging blindly on their college football statistics thus far in their career, would you place above the other?

The disparity between the two of these players ranking is ridiculous. The entire poll means jack sh#t. They continually discredit themselves with this love affair for Hackenberg.

Now if you're gonna rate college quarterbacks, then rate college quarterbacks. If you're gonna rate fairyland predictions of who you think might be a star in the NFL someday, then label the poll as that. By the way, Hackenberg better step his game up because in my opinion, he wouldn't be too high in the fairyland poll either.
I think they rate Hackenberg higher because of his overall stats from his Fr. & So. years and his potential. He was pretty damn good as a True Freshman.

 
I fully understood the quote from the coach. It really wasn't that complex of a concept to understand. However, it is EXTREMELY complex for the QB and WR to be on the same page. It literally takes hours and hours and game after game to be able to be on that same page. Ward might run that rout one way and if he gets hurt, the backup might run it differently enough that it throws off the Roethlisberger.
You're absolutely correct. That's why QB's spend so much time with their WR's working on timing and chemistry. It's critical.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you're getting at is you don't think it's productive to do these kinds of routes if the QB and WR don't have the time to put in the work and make the plays successful. And you're right - if they can't do it, it's not productive. But, college defenses are often good enough that you need to be able to spruce up your attack, and in Riley's type of offense, option routes may be applicable. Just like they were with Beck.

So, in one breath it appeared you were criticizing option routes in general, and in another breath it seems you're criticizing their use at Nebraska. Both different things there. If our players can't get it down then it would be unwise to force them, and as Riley has said, he's not a guy who wants to force players into things they're not good at.

My whole purpose was mainly just explaining option routes and their application, not their validity in our offense.
My point is three fold:

1) Yes, if the players don't have the time to put in to get the chemistry down, it is a bad idea to run that complex of a system at Nebraska.

2) Tommy is constantly criticized for "staring down" receivers. I believe that is in part due to him needing to watch receivers to know what rout they are running before he throws the ball. It would be much more difficult to look one way and throw the other if he doesn't know where the receiver is going to be.

3) I have said many times, I believe many of the "bad throws" or interceptions or near interceptions are due to the QB and WR not being on the same page in this system. In this thread there have been two notable ones mentioned. There were more.

Hopefully by changing this system our passing game improves.

And, yes, I still understand our passing game is going to be complex and it needs to be. But, my understanding is that it will be easier for the players to be on the same page.
I follow you. I know some variations of the WCO utilize more option routes, while others focus more on timing/precision routes. Have there been any quotes from Riley/Langsdorf yet regarding this? Just curious.

 
Christian Hackenberg:

55.8% Completion Percentage

2977 Yards Passing

93 rushing Attempts for -94 yards

12 Touchdowns

15 Interceptions

Tommy Armstrong Jr.:

53.3% Completion Percentage

2695 Yards Passing

145 Rushing Attempts for 705 yards

22 Touchdowns

12 Interceptions

Both of these players above are entering their Jr. seasons. One players is ranked #9 in the poll, the other is #37.

Which one, if you were judging blindly on their college football statistics thus far in their career, would you place above the other?

The disparity between the two of these players ranking is ridiculous. The entire poll means jack sh#t. They continually discredit themselves with this love affair for Hackenberg.

Now if you're gonna rate college quarterbacks, then rate college quarterbacks. If you're gonna rate fairyland predictions of who you think might be a star in the NFL someday, then label the poll as that. By the way, Hackenberg better step his game up because in my opinion, he wouldn't be too high in the fairyland poll either.
I didn't get into specifics about any of the rankings in my post, but I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that Hackenberg was WAY overrated.

 
While we're at it, in case anybody wants a quick reference of where our opponents for the season rank:

4. Connor Cook, Michigan State

9. Christian Hackenberg, Penn State

10. Taysom Hill, BYU

11. Brad Kaaya, Miami

43. Wes Lunt, Illinois

61. Mitch Leidner, Minnesota

63. C.J. Beathard, Iowa

66. Cody Clements, Southern Alabama

76. Clayton Thorson, Northwestern

80. Joel Stave, Wisconsin

88. Hayden Rettig, Rutgers

100. Austin Appleby, Purdue

104. Nick Mullens, Southern Miss

So Armstrong is definitely above average among our competition.
Stave is #80??? Wow.

If that's the case, I hope he doesn't get hurt before we play him.

 
Both of these players above are entering their Jr. seasons. One players is ranked #9 in the poll, the other is #37.

Which one, if you were judging blindly on their college football statistics thus far in their career, would you place above the other?

The disparity between the two of these players ranking is ridiculous. The entire poll means jack sh#t. They continually discredit themselves with this love affair for Hackenberg.

Now if you're gonna rate college quarterbacks, then rate college quarterbacks. If you're gonna rate fairyland predictions of who you think might be a star in the NFL someday, then label the poll as that. By the way, Hackenberg better step his game up because in my opinion, he wouldn't be too high in the fairyland poll either.


Why are we only judging blindly on their statistics thus far in their career?

And if we are, why aren't we judging by their freshman years as well?

 
Both of these players above are entering their Jr. seasons. One players is ranked #9 in the poll, the other is #37.

Which one, if you were judging blindly on their college football statistics thus far in their career, would you place above the other?

The disparity between the two of these players ranking is ridiculous. The entire poll means jack sh#t. They continually discredit themselves with this love affair for Hackenberg.

Now if you're gonna rate college quarterbacks, then rate college quarterbacks. If you're gonna rate fairyland predictions of who you think might be a star in the NFL someday, then label the poll as that. By the way, Hackenberg better step his game up because in my opinion, he wouldn't be too high in the fairyland poll either.

Why are we only judging blindly on their statistics thus far in their career?

And if we are, why aren't we judging by their freshman years as well?
We're not. I said "if" you did, you may interpret the rankings differently.

Regardless, I still think Hackenberg is overrated. I think they've included their projections on his future as an NFL QB in their rankings of his College QB career. As of yet, Hackenberg has not met those projections.

Who said we weren't judging their freshman years as well?

You can include those stats if you want, feel free. I just looked up last season because it was the one year they BOTH played full seasons as starting Qb.

Tommy's freshman season was unique vs. Hackenbergs in that Tommy was thrust into the starting role due to injury instead of working an entire off-season preparing as a starter. Also, Tommy split some reps with Ron Kellogg in his freshman year.

I don't think Hackenbergs scenario was similar, could be wrong?

I don't think Armstrong gets enough credit for what he was able to accomplish in that freshman season. That year could've went downhill quickly. Tommy and Kellogg did a nice job of keeping the team competitive.

 
I don't think Armstrong gets enough credit for what he was able to accomplish in that freshman season. That year could've went downhill quickly. Tommy and Kellogg did a nice job of keeping the team competitive.
Completely agree with this. I think his leadership is something that doesn't come through in any of those stats and it's one of his most important traits as our QB.

 
I understand he could and should have been there.

But how does he not notice his receiver is still back 10 yards nowhere near the target are. The pass was great, look how easily the defender caught it.
Timing. Tommy used to Bell most likely in that situation. He throws where Bell most likely would have been, as he probably had been in practice. Hovey, ran it maybe once before. Maybe...

Let's break it down like this. Let's subtract ourselves from a passing play and into a buck sweep.

Look at the play below.

BuckSweepVsMizz.gif


Two pulling guards. If that second pulling guard (#63) runs into another lineman, or trips over one of their foot, the timing and play is blown. Because his block on the inside second level is essential to creating that running lane. If he isn't there, due to not moving fast enough or tripping/running into a fellow player, this play is broken because the RB couldn't run passed a slower LB.

OR

The WR doesn't crack block the first LB. A potential TD turns into a disaster because one guy, for one reason or another, doesn't execute.

The RB isn't going to stop running because he's ran the play numerous times, and knows what he should expect.

It comes down to timing and execution. Tommy was expecting one thing, but it didn't end up happening.

If nothing else, this is just an excuse to watch the buck sweep...
I wouldn't mind being able to watch games from that high angle behind the play for an entire game.

Trying to get our HS to get one of those endzone camera's that are always being marketed at every coaching clinic ever. Problem is, that it's way too damn expensive. So much easier for film breakdown when teaching to kids, especially the OLine and their first steps etc...

 
2. Is Tommy Armstrong the guy at QB?

He has to be. There really are no viable options with experience beyond the junior. Armstrong excels on deep throws. Short throws? Not so much so. And, that’s an issue in Mike Riley’s offense, a pro-style that features myriad shorter tosses. Armstrong was spotty with his accuracy when we watched practice. But don’t expect Riley to do what Bill Callahan did when he took over in Lincoln with Joe Dailey at quarterback. That is: force a round peg into a square hole. Riley seemingly will work around and accentuate the talent on hand, playing to its strengths while folding in elements of his offense. To that end, Armstrong is practicing the zone-read play he is so adept at running.
BTN

 
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I'll just drop it. I'm looking for a reason the pass was thrown, not the reason it would have been a great reception if the receiver made it to the spot. I see that. He didn't get there, the defender did, interception. Understood. Still think the throw wasn't necessary.
Watch the video. The pass is at 1:59.

The receivers were running into each other basically as he started throwing.

http://www.btn2go.com/video/nebraska-at-michigan-state--football-highlights

 
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