Education

[RedDenver]

Some other considerations for whether and how much we should fund colleges are taxpayer benefits and benefits to local economies:

https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB9461/index1.html

RAND researchers examined how taxpayers benefit from increases in students' educational attainment. Using statistical modeling and national data, they analyzed how increases in educational attainment are associated with tax revenues, funds for social support and insurance programs, and spending on incarceration. The researchers found that, for all racial/ethnic groups, an increase in a student's educational attainment — for example, completing high school rather than dropping out — is associated with substantial value for taxpayers over time.

https://www.brookings.edu/research/what-colleges-do-for-local-economies-a-direct-measure-based-on-consumption/

With these benefits in mind, this brief finds the following:

• The average bachelor’s degree holder contributes $278,000 more to local economies than the average high school graduate through direct spending over the course of his or her lifetime; an associate degree holder contributes $81,000 more than a high school graduate.
  
• The quality of colleges greatly affects the size of these benefits. High value-added four-year colleges contribute $265,000 more per student to local economies than low-value added four-year colleges. The contribution is $184,000 for high value-added two-year colleges.
  
• Sixty-eight percent of alumni from two-year colleges remain in the area of their college after attending, compared to 42 percent of alumni from four-year colleges. High-value added colleges are no more or less likely to retain students in their metropolitan area.
  
• State and local governments, as well as their taxpayers, have a very strong incentive to boost college attendance and completion, especially at higher quality institutions. Risk-sharing of federal student loans—based on value-added principles—is one promising approach to promoting greater economic returns for students and taxpayers.
  

 

[commando]

yep...she's a trumper

 

[BigRedBuster]

[No message]

 

[Mierin]

Some in the Dems Rebuild topic are asking for an education topic. If one of the mods is bored maybe they can move those posts over here. 

This is one of those topics where I can list a lot of problems but I don’t have many ideas on solutions. I’ll start with that though, focusing on college education.

1) Too many people are going to college. The market is flooded with people doing things that have nothing to do with their degrees.

2) Businesses know they can ask for a college degree when hiring even if it’s not really necessary for the job. E.g. no one can convince me an administrative assistant with a good high school GPA can’t learn on the job under an office manager.

3) #1 and #2 are a vicious cycle. You don’t really need a degree to gain the skills to do job X, but the hiring manager for job X will pick the people with degrees first, so you actually do need the degree. Schools gain the most out of this, then businesses. Students gain the least and spend a lot of $.

4) School is getting more and more expensive but it’s not gaining in value. In fact, because of #1, college degrees are likely losing value. If you’re not sought after because everyone has a degree, the degree doesn’t have as much value.

5) I don’t know that this is true because I’m only going off of personal experience. I think because of #1, college has gotten easier. I was in several UNL classes that were hilariously easy. This is exacerbated when you’re in a field like education where they aren’t paying a lot. There are really smart teachers but being smart isn’t a requirement to get a teaching degree.

 

[Landlord]

It's hard to put a price tag on the ways I grew up and the relationships I formed in college, but I wish I hadn't gone. Or I at least wish I had known to give it up early when I should've. But I had no idea who I was or what I wanted and it was the thing that was expected of someone respectable and successful in high school.

The status of a college degree in WAY too many career fields is a joke and is really frustrating. I don't have the most objective perspective on that as a two time college dropout making and paving a way for myself and finding it to be possible, but yeah, it sucks. 

I'm pretty much going to keep requesting deferments and forebearance on my student loans forever until either the apocalypse, I get rich, or I get lucky and some future administration offers some kind of bailout program. That's a personal kick the can down the road problem for me. 

 

[RedDenver]

1) Too many people are going to college.

I absolutely hate this idea that getting an education should somehow be restricted. It's lunacy to want a less-educated society - we should want MORE people to go to college. The fact our economy has a flawed hiring system doesn't mean we should restrict educating our population - it means the hiring system should be fixed.

 

[Mierin]

I absolutely hate this idea that getting an education should somehow be restricted. It's lunacy to want a less-educated society - we should want MORE people to go to college. The fact our economy has a flawed hiring system doesn't mean we should restrict educating our population - it means the hiring system should be fixed.

I said nothing of restricting education. I think less people should go to college, not that access to college (or education) should be restricted. If everyone goes to college then I think it should be free, just like high school.

And less college does not mean less educated. We have this idea in our heads that we have to go to college to get education but that isn’t true. Also, learning a trade instead of going to college should not be looked down upon nor does it mean those people are less educated.

I think it’s in many people’s best interests to not go tens of thousands of $ in debt for their education. It’s also in many people’s best interests to not be urged by parents and educators to go to college immediately after high school. I personally should not have gone at 18.

 

[sho]

I absolutely hate this idea that getting an education should somehow be restricted. It's lunacy to want a less-educated society - we should want MORE people to go to college. The fact our economy has a flawed hiring system doesn't mean we should restrict educating our population - it means the hiring system should be fixed.

I don't even think it's a flawed hiring system.  At my last company, we hired an Accounts Payable person.  We have over 50+ applicants, we hired a guy just out of college with a degree from Iowa State.  Starting wage was $16.50, we didn't require that degree, the posting I believe said AA degree preferred (it may have been required, but I don't think it was).   He's 24, college educated, full time job, and lives in his parents basement because that's all he can afford.  I think the biggest issue is the price of that education in comparison to the salary of your career.   

Look at elementary school teachers, how much student loan debt do they acquire to get their degree, just to get teaching gigs that start in the low 30s?    The guy at my old job in AP, teachers, so many other career fields need that education to even get their foot in the door, and then they don't make enough to afford to live.   The price of education has ballooned and is so far out of whack with industry salaries, that short of offering free education, like Bernie is proposing, with a caveat (ie minimum gpa) I don't know if you can fix the problem.

Higher education is creating a massive debt burden on society

 

[Mierin]

@sho  Education loans are expected to be the biggest factor in the next recession.

 

[BigRedBuster]

I absolutely hate this idea that getting an education should somehow be restricted. It's lunacy to want a less-educated society - we should want MORE people to go to college. The fact our economy has a flawed hiring system doesn't mean we should restrict educating our population - it means the hiring system should be fixed.

I completely understand and appreciate what you are saying.  The better educated a population is, the better.

I wouldn't simply say "too many people are going to college".  I would say, too many people are trying to get the wrong type of post HS training and expecting it to reap financial benefits later.  There are LOTS of types of post HS training.  Many people think they should go to a big 4 year school when what they really want to do could be accomplished as an apprentice, community college or tech school.  This is a problem with parenting, HS guidance....AND......professions themselves.

Example.  There is no reason in hell why an entry level grade school teacher needs a 4 year degree.  None.  So, why not allow them to get a two year degree and then start earning a living doing what they want to do?

 

[Mierin]

I completely understand and appreciate what you are saying.  The better educated a population is, the better.

I wouldn't simply say "too many people are going to college".  I would say, too many people are trying to get the wrong type of post HS training and expecting it to reap financial benefits later. 

I should probably amend it to say 4 year college.

 

[RedDenver]

I said nothing of restricting education. I think less people should go to college, not that access to college (or education) should be restricted. If everyone goes to college then I think it should be free, just like high school.

And less college does not mean less educated. We have this idea in our heads that we have to go to college to get education but that isn’t true. Also, learning a trade instead of going to college should not be looked down upon nor does it mean those people are less educated.

I think it’s in many people’s best interests to not go tens of thousands of $ in debt for their education. It’s also in many people’s best interests to not be urged by parents and educators to go to college immediately after high school. I personally should not have gone at 18.

I don't even think it's a flawed hiring system.  At my last company, we hired an Accounts Payable person.  We have over 50+ applicants, we hired a guy just out of college with a degree from Iowa State.  Starting wage was $16.50, we didn't require that degree, the posting I believe said AA degree preferred (it may have been required, but I don't think it was).   He's 24, college educated, full time job, and lives in his parents basement because that's all he can afford.  I think the biggest issue is the price of that education in comparison to the salary of your career.   

Look at elementary school teachers, how much student loan debt do they acquire to get their degree, just to get teaching gigs that start in the low 30s?    The guy at my old job in AP, teachers, so many other career fields need that education to even get their foot in the door, and then they don't make enough to afford to live.   The price of education has ballooned and is so far out of whack with industry salaries, that short of offering free education, like Bernie is proposing, with a caveat (ie minimum gpa) I don't know if you can fix the problem.

Higher education is creating a massive debt burden on society

I think you're missing my point, which is that "less people should go to college" is not the solution to "college is expensive", "our economy is poorly structured for getting everyone a degree", or "jobs aren't paying what we expect for a college degree".

BRB does a good job of addressing my point:

I completely understand and appreciate what you are saying.  The better educated a population is, the better.

I wouldn't simply say "too many people are going to college".  I would say, too many people are trying to get the wrong type of post HS training and expecting it to reap financial benefits later.  There are LOTS of types of post HS training.  Many people think they should go to a big 4 year school when what they really want to do could be accomplished as an apprentice, community college or tech school.  This is a problem with parenting, HS guidance....AND......professions themselves.

Example.  There is no reason in hell why an entry level grade school teacher needs a 4 year degree.  None.  So, why not allow them to get a two year degree and then start earning a living doing what they want to do?

 

[Mierin]

I think you're missing my point, which is that "less people should go to college" is not the solution to "college is expensive", "our economy is poorly structured for getting everyone a degree", or "jobs aren't paying what we expect for a college degree".

BRB does a good job of addressing my point:

BRB is saying with what you bolded what I was trying to say. I even mentioned training to be an admin assistant under an office manager (i.e. an apprenticeship).

what they really want to do could be accomplished as an apprentice, community college or tech school

Like I said, I should have said 4 year college/university. That was what I was thinking of when I said it. 

I know lots of people who got a 4 year degree for things I don’t think require a 4 year degree, because it’s “what you’re supposed to do.”

 

[JJ Husker]

I absolutely hate this idea that getting an education should somehow be restricted. It's lunacy to want a less-educated society - we should want MORE people to go to college. The fact our economy has a flawed hiring system doesn't mean we should restrict educating our population - it means the hiring system should be fixed.

Here’s an idea that might help start straightening things out. Howabout employers can’t require a college degree for jobs that pay less than $80-$100k. That might begin to solve both problems. People wouldn’t feel compelled to get that degree and wind up as night manager at Taco Johns and companies wouldn’t be fanning the flames of higher education by demanding somebody invest $150k or more to perform simple tasks anybody with a pulse could learn to do within a month on the job.

It’s my belief, by and large, that the majority of people aren’t getting more educated or smarter in college but rather they are just playing the game that’s been laid in front of them. With some obvious exceptions, it’s just become jumping through hoops to try to keep from starving.

 

[Mierin]

It’s my belief, by and large, that the majority of people aren’t getting more educated or smarter in college but rather they are just playing the game that’s been laid in front of them.

This is how I feel.