Immigration Ban

[RedDenver]

Are the lines imaginary or do they matter? Do you believe borders matter or not?

The lines are imaginary and they matter. I believe borders do matter, but I understand that they're just a concept of dividing human societies up geographically.  I also believe being at the birth of one's child is far more important than whether someone lives on one side or the other of that border. Time enough to decide whether they should get to stay or have to go after the birth has been attended and the child is cared for.

 

[Ric Flair]

13 hours ago, knapplc said:



That he's a fan of Las Cafeteras.

I mean... does this look like a group of horrific subversives to you?

OK, so I did some research on this subversive group, Las Cafeteras.  These guys are pretty hard core, not quite MS13 but... like MS11 or 12. Maybe MS8 on a nice day.

Here's one of their most popular recruitment videos. NSFW/NSFL.

Don't let the kids watch this. I don't want to do any recruiting for these caballeros.

If they’re arguing for open borders, then yes...they are subversive.

 

[Ric Flair]

The lines are imaginary and they matter. I believe borders do matter, but I understand that they're just a concept of dividing human societies up geographically.  I also believe being at the birth of one's child is far more important than whether someone lives on one side or the other of that border. Time enough to decide whether they should get to stay or have to go after the birth has been attended and the child is cared for.

If he wanted to be present for the birth of his child, he should have stayed in Mexico. We don’t owe him any favors. He’s here illegally. Period.

Plus the guy’s wanted in connection with a homicide. I can’t even fathom giving a crap about whether he gets to watch his kid be born. First, he should be in Mexico. Second, he should be in jail. 

 

[knapplc]

If they’re arguing for open borders, then yes...they are subversive.

Sure, in much the same way that people who wear Drowning Pool shirts are advocating letting the actual bodies hit the actual floor.

 

[RedDenver]

If he wanted to be present for the birth of his child, he should have stayed in Mexico. We don’t owe him any favors. He’s here illegally. Period.

And we'll have to fundamentally disagree. I don't think missing the birth of a child is a punish that fits the crime of being over a border.

Plus the guy’s wanted in connection with a homicide. I can’t even fathom giving a crap about whether he gets to watch his kid be born. First, he should be in Mexico. Second, he should be in jail. 

As I've said several times, if he indeed has a warrant out for his arrest for murder, then I'm fine with him being detained/arrested, so that's a strawman. However, the way ICE released a claim of a warrant a day later after initially just saying he was here illegally, makes me a bit suspicious. But as I said, hopefully a hearing will be held and the truth will come out.

 

[Ric Flair]

Sure, in much the same way that people who wear Drowning Pool shirts are advocating letting the actual bodies hit the actual floor.

To think that his shirt isn’t meant to convey a message is hopelessly naive.

 

[Ric Flair]

And we'll have to fundamentally disagree. I don't think missing the birth of a child is a punish that fits the crime of being over a border.

As I've said several times, if he indeed has a warrant out for his arrest for murder, then I'm fine with him being detained/arrested, so that's a strawman. However, the way ICE released a claim of a warrant a day later after initially just saying he was here illegally, makes me a bit suspicious. But as I said, hopefully a hearing will be held and the truth will come out.

Yeah, we’ll have to disagree. I don’t think we owe illegal immigrants anything. I’d be curious to know who’s paying the hospital bills related to delivering the baby. My guess is the murderer here illegally isn’t and one way or another the rest of us taxpayers are.

 

[BigRedBuster]

Yeah, we’ll have to disagree. I don’t think we owe illegal immigrants anything. I’d be curious to know who’s paying the hospital bills related to delivering the baby. My guess is the murderer here illegally isn’t and one way or another the rest of us taxpayers are.

Actually.....if they have a job....which the vast majority are here working.....chances are, they are paying taxes.....even the murderer....since he did have a job. 

 

[Ric Flair]

Actually.....if they have a job....which the vast majority are here working.....chances are, they are paying taxes.....even the murderer....since he did have a job. 

Do they have health insurance? I doubt it. My guess is the rest of us will wind up paying for the medical bills.

HOORAY FOR OPEN BORDERS!

 

[BigRedBuster]

Do they have health insurance? I doubt it. My guess is the rest of us will wind up paying for the medical bills.

HOORAY FOR OPEN BORDERS!

Nobody in this discussion is condoning open borders. 

 

[Ric Flair]

Nobody in this discussion is condoning open borders. 

Then tell me what we should do with the illegal immigrants already here.

Then tell me which people who show up at the border should be allowed to stay and which should be sent home.

 

[funhusker]

Do they have health insurance? I doubt it. My guess is the rest of us will wind up paying for the medical bills.

HOORAY FOR OPEN BORDERS!

Isn't the mother here legally?  I'm sure she is, so I'll continue.  There would have been zero medical bills related to the father.  The surgery would have been on the legal mother and recovery and care for her and the baby.  He would not be a patient.

So unless you are advocating deporting everyone that can't afford a medical bill, I see no reason for this discussion in this thread.

Never mind: I read the initial story incorrectly.  She also is undocumented.  Carry on...

 

[funhusker]

^^^^

I'm going to leave my above post as an example of it being okay to post something in error and admit it was posted without full information.  I screwed up.  Oops.

That said, the mother is "undocumented" but has 3 children born in the US.  Not sure on the laws anymore, they do need reformed.  But how does that affect her "status"?    The baby will be a citizen.  So would his/her delivery be considered a service to "illegals"?  Or just a surgery for the "legal"?  Should doctors just cut the "illegal" open to pull out the citizen and let the "illegal" fend for herself?  Should we pay for the expensive surgery, but not the cheaper antibiotics and painkillers?

Instead of not having this discussion, maybe we should?  Like I said, I was wrong...

 

[knapplc]

To think that his shirt isn’t meant to convey a message is hopelessly naive.

Show the laws he's promulgated that would dissolve America's borders.

Heck, show the laws that any person in Congress has promulgated that would dissolve America's borders.

Because without that evidence, this is all third grade nonsense.

 

[BigRedBuster]

Then tell me what we should do with the illegal immigrants already here.

Then tell me which people who show up at the border should be allowed to stay and which should be sent home.

First off....like I have said.  From the President on down, stop demonizing these people.  The vast majority just want a better life, came here for a job (actually want to work), are less prone to be a violent criminal than native born Americans.....etc.  Demonizing an entire group of people does nothing other than creates a false sense of fear that is not good for anyone other than a politician wanting votes.  The idiot and chief is even starting to demonize LEGAL immigrants.

Second, there are anywhere from 10 - 12 million illegal immigrants in the US.  To deport all of them, would be both a human rights disaster and destroy our economy at the same time.  On top of that, the cost of doing so would be enormous.  WAY more than the actual cost of having them here.

So, let's start with the reality, we are not deporting all illegal immigrants.  So, what's the solution?

a)  Figure out a way that people that are here can become legal.  Deport violent criminals and give the people who are here, working hard, raising their families and contributing to our communities and economy, a path to citizenship.

b)  Fix our immigration system so it's easier to immigrate legally.  The system is a disaster.  I've been familiar with or helped with two people going through it and it's almost impossible.  And...this was even long before Drumpf took office.

c)  Once that is all discussed and figured out, I'm fine with increasing border security.  We do need to know who is coming into our country.  That said, I am not under the delusion that we will stop all illegal immigration.

Fact, a very large number of people who are illegal, came here legally with a visa and over stayed the visa.  Many are even European...I guess the idiot doesn't care about them because they aren't from s#!t hole countries.

Fix the system without destroying people's lives.  The vast majority of these people are here contributing to the economy, raising their families and paying taxes....many times to a system they won't get much (if any) benefit from in the long run.

PS.....and building a friggen physical wall is the dumbest idea thrown out in the last 30 years on the subject.