Michael Jordan: GOAT

admo said:
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I also miss the tough enforcers throughout the 80's and 90's... and it kind of ended after the Rasheed Wallace era.  Guys who played nasty and yelled and got after players and refs.  You hated them, but loved seeing it in the game.
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I think this role is now filled by Draymond Green, Dillon Brooks, PatBev and I'm sure I'm missing some.  But really in your face defenders, chippy, talk a lot and just get under the fans and opponents skin.

 
sho said:
I think this role is now filled by Draymond Green, Dillon Brooks, PatBev and I'm sure I'm missing some.  But really in your face defenders, chippy, talk a lot and just get under the fans and opponents skin.
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Yeah... sorta... but I know what you mean.

With all due respect, there is no comparison... The NBA players of the 80's and 90's guarded their guy like a defender... they played physical and quick defense.

But also, the mass number of shooters in today's ERA are super more skillful with the outside shot in comparison....  and today's power forward and center can spread the floor with an outside 3-PT shot and run the floor (not all, but certainly a lot more than there ever was in the 80's and 90's)

I remember Shaq being a beast his first few years...(before he became an all-time monster great), but it wasn't always easy for him at first... going against Olajuwon, Ewing, David Robinson, Kevin Willis, Mutombo, Shawn Kemp (PF), etc, and other non-centers (power forwards that played physical inside the paint).

I love seeing those games, and appreciate them so much.  But I do like the spacing of today's game with the heavy 3 point shot, layup or bust mentality (thanks to analytics changing the league).

I just don't like the superstar treatment (been going on since the early NBA David Stern days that got handed off to Silver)... or the carrying, double dribble, extra steps, phantom "rock star" fouls, all for entertainment value. 

 
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admo said:
I have been watching a lot of games from the 1980's & 90's.  Full games, as they happened.  Love YouTube and those who upload them.  

The thing I noticed that I always recalled but may have forgotten, is how they played defense.  Like, literally everyone on the floor was a defender.  Man on Man, up in your face, bumping and defending the wing or ball or inside. 

Players during that era had to work a lot harder for shots and picks were needed to give some space.  They also defending the point guard like he was going to rob their house the moment the PG got the ball.  Awesome!

But also, I am glad they did away with the continuation foul (whistle blows against a defender, and the offensive player continues to take a step or two towards the hoop and drops it in for an easy bucket - count it!  And One!). 

Although I have seen refs allow this lately at times.  I don't know why.  Mostly the "super stars" get this treatment.

Another thing - in the 80's and 90's era you could not get away with today's current dribbling street style.  Casually bringing the ball down the court dribbling it over your shoulder to around your head (aka "carrying the ball")  or the hesitation move - which is pausing as you dribble to do a cross over ("double dribble" back then).  Totally entertainment street ball that the NBA embraces.

I also noticed how the game slowed down in the 90s because of the triangle and isolation.  In the 80s they ran hard and put up points, just trading buckets with better defenses too.  

I also miss the tough enforcers throughout the 80's and 90's... and it kind of ended after the Rasheed Wallace era.  Guys who played nasty and yelled and got after players and refs.  You hated them, but loved seeing it in the game.

I do like the current NBA at times, in part for the massive amount of three point shooting and high scoring games.  There was a time during the 2000's (and 90's) when the scores ended in the low 80's and mid 70's... so boring - and not because of defense - but because of isolation and working the clock down.
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This was a pretty contentious HB argument a couple years ago, but I think the NBA is probably playing better defense across the board today. There were legendary enforcers and brawlers back in the day, but there were also a lot of pure scorers who barely lifted a finger on defense. These days a coach will bench a scorer who's consistently getting burned on defense.  If you've got just one guy on the court who can't play d, everyone on the opposing team will run through him. It was almost comical a few years ago when Sacramento tried to play BYU wonder kid Jimmer Freddette. 

New rules make it harder to play the old-style defense. That doesn't mean less defense -- just different strategy and technique. 

There are still some pretty good brawls these days, too. Saw a clip this week of a hands-on-throat fight. Even Devin Booker is getting chippy.

Whether you thought the 1980s was the era of defense depends on which Division you watched.  The East was slow and brutal. The West was fast-break, matador-defense, scorefests, even without the 3 pointer.  A 1980s Nuggets/Spurs game could go 163-155 in regulation. 

Don't know if you noticed, but the league finally cracked down on the traveling (pivot feet and quasi-Euro steps) and what we used to call "palming" which they now call "discontinuation."  I know this because I'm a Warriors fan and Jordan Poole, Steph Curry, and Klay Thompson have gotten more of those calls this season than in their entire careers. 

 
Michael Jordan played 15 years. 

Not to hurt people's feelings, but 1/3rd of his career, his team finished below .500 winning %.  That's 5 years  :(

I mean the guy was great, no question, and arguably the greatest individual player ever.  Fun "highlight reel" stuff.  He made a killing at the free throw line, and also with shot attempts per game.  Kept the league going when Bird and Magic and Kareem all ended their careers.  Had arguably the greatest NBA basketball Coach at the time (Phil Jackson).  And the much needed help from players like Scottie Pippen (All-Star), Horace Grant, Cartwright, Paxson, BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr...

Just saying, he was possibly absolutely the greatest ever, and we should all agree with it.  Even if there are some flaws and questions and remembering years when he wasn't the greatest when he played.

 
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admo said:
Michael Jordan played 15 years. 

Not to hurt people's feelings, but 1/3rd of his career, his team finished below .500 winning %.  That's 5 years  :(

I mean the guy was great, no question, and arguably the greatest individual player ever.  Fun "highlight reel" stuff.  He made a killing at the free throw line, and also with shot attempts per game.  Kept the league going when Bird and Magic and Kareem all ended their careers.  Had arguably the greatest NBA basketball Coach at the time (Phil Jackson).  And the much needed help from players like Scottie Pippen (All-Star), Horace Grant, Cartwright, Paxson, BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr...

Just saying, he was possibly absolutely the greatest ever, and we should all agree with it.  Even if there are some flaws and questions and remembering years when he wasn't the greatest when he played.
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"he was possibly absolutely the greatest ever and we should all agree with it" is one of the most nonsense sentences I've read in a decent while.

 
Lorewarn said:
"he was possibly absolutely the greatest ever and we should all agree with it" is one of the most nonsense sentences I've read in a decent while.
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Thank You for the kind words.  And for noticing  :)  

I too thought it was a masterpiece........ of s#!t   chuckleshuffle   

Is it "I too" or "Me too"??!??  I forget which one isn't possibly appropriate to say anymore, absolutely.  

#Not apologizing for being a C- student 

#Michael Jordan is still the GOAT !!!!  :w00t

 
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I know we paying respects to Michael Jordan, but outside of the Celtics, Lakers and Bulls...  there was also the Detroit Pistons - the "bad-boys"    :horns

Coach Chuck Daly, and players like Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, Rick Mahorn, Bill Laimbeer, Vinnie Johnson ("microwave"), Dennis Rodman, John Salley, James Edwards, Adrian Dantley, Mark Aguirre....

They were sandwiched in-between the Celts/Lakers Era and the Bulls Dynasty.  It was so much fun and nastiness ... hated them but loved them  :w00t

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Yeah, I hated the Pistons but kinda dug 'em, too, because they made the NBA more entertaining. 

Those Ben Wallace/Rasheed Wallace Pistons teams were almost as nasty and as good.

 
I'm surprised Kobe didn't get more....he's still beloved by a lot of players that are playing now.   Many of whom consider him the GOAT.

 
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