School Choice/Vouchers (split from '7 point Drain the Swamp')

Every time this is discussed, people claim the schools need improved and ....no child left behind sucks....common core sucks.....standardized tests suck....school choice sucks....

So...every time a program is out in place to measure or hold schools accountable, we are told its horrible.

I would love to hear from people in the educational system on how we should hold schools and teachers accountable and gauge their progress?

If we can't do that, why have the department of education?

 
Every time this is discussed, people claim the schools need improved and ....no child left behind sucks....common core sucks.....standardized tests suck....school choice sucks....

So...every time a program is out in place to measure or hold schools accountable, we are told its horrible.

I would love to hear from people in the educational system on how we should hold schools and teachers accountable and gauge their progress?

If we can't do that, why have the department of education?
I think teachers should be rewarded for doing well instead of punished for doing badly. Teachers don't get paid enough $ to make it such a volatile field where that's concerned. There is almost no incentive to become a teacher unless you love kids. Making it a field where it's easy to get fired/have your school shut down (like with the No Child Left Behind rules) makes it even worse.

Also, the rate of improvement in reading/math did not increase when these harsh punishments were put in place. They were steadily improving since the early 90s.

I don't think there should be across the board/federal standard for being shut down. Poorer students have so much going against them before even starting school so shutting down a poorer area school for having success with 60% of the kids instead of 80% just doesn't make sense to me. There have been studies done just on the effect of not having breakfast on how well kids learn and poorer kids are more likely to be reliant on school food and not have breakfast.

Anyhow... the major issue here might not even be our methods. I've gone into this here before but in the U.S. We try to do right by anyone. Our special education program is really good. We help people with any disability and try to make sure they graduate and even go to college if possible. It's the law that we do everything within our power to education everyone no matter how severe their disability.

In China it's the opposite. Only 60% of disabled people are educated. They focus on the super smart and have extremely difficult tests they have to study for.

Neither of these is wrong. I wish the U.S. focused more on smart kids. But we shouldn't leave behind the disabled either.

 
So....your idea is to have employees that you can't have negative consequences if they suck at their job.

And no way of measuring if they suck at their job.

 
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I teach in a public school. I have taught in a private school.

I would not mind vouchers IF for every student who options out of public school, the public school gets to pick another student to accompany the student. This way the private school does not get to cherry pick the best students. Oh, and if the public school picked student becomes not enrolled in the private school for what ever reason, the public school can choose another student to take his place.

 
China's way is wrong.

I think Moiraine is talking about the wrongheadedness that comes with standardized testing. Certainly that kind of accountability was one of the big criticisms of NCLB, right?

 
So....your idea is to have employees that you can't have negative consequences if they suck at their job.

And no way of measuring if they suck at their job.
Maybe I worded it badly but I still don't think that's the conclusion you should have gotten from my post. I think however bad teachers were punished/fired pre-NCLB should be in place. NCLB went way WAY overboard with what they did.

On the last part I don't have an answer. I just know standardized testing hasn't been shown to be a good assessment.

 
Bad teachers are like any other industry- yes they are some bad ones, just like police officers, nurses, doctors, etc but most are adequate or above. The thing is, teachers don't teach anymore, they read scripts and if they get caught not reading the script (at least in our district) they are tagged with a "plan of assistance." Principals formally walk through twice, informally four plus times and the head of the district-curriculum also makes at least one unscheduled walk through. Teachers better be aligned with what they posted for lesson plans that day, down to the eact words they say. The craft of teaching-like finding teachable moments or doing on the spot adjustments based on what each teacher thinks their class needs in real time- is gone. How is selling education going to magically make teachers better? If you think student performace is solely a teacher issue, you are so sadly mistaken. Poor school perforamance is a breakdown of the family problem. Kids don't have the emotional/social foundation to succeed in any part of life and the easiest thing to blame is the school. Everything is the school's fault. Kid can't read-blame last year's teacher. Kid can't do math-must be a curriculum problem. Kid can't get along with anyone-blame the school and the other kids. I wouldn't be surprised to see "school" not even be a physical place in a few years. Parent's and their lazy kids seemingly like virtual school. Out district has seen massive growth in the last three years of kids that are opting out of traditional school and enrolling in online school. No start time and learn in yout PJs. Sounds like a prosocial movement, doesn't it?

Parent's need to quit be wussys. Criticism is for self improvement and it doesn't mean that kids are inheriantly flawed. A bad grade is not going to ruin their futures or automatiically eliminate them from Harvard. Failure is often necessary to fuel desire. Kids sometimes don't get along-doesn't make it bullying. But mild bullying is necessary to teach kids how to stand up for themselves and for others.

If you really want to see the difference in student outcomes per school you only need to look at one demographic-percentage of single parent families.

 
I teach in a public school. I have taught in a private school.

I would not mind vouchers IF for every student who options out of public school, the public school gets to pick another student to accompany the student. This way the private school does not get to cherry pick the best students. Oh, and if the public school picked student becomes not enrolled in the private school for what ever reason, the public school can choose another student to take his place.
So if a parent doesn't like next year's teacher you just pull your child and put them at another school? Seems like that will teach kids positive conflict resolution skills.

 
Bad teachers are like any other industry- yes they are some bad ones, just like police officers, nurses, doctors, etc but most are adequate or above. The thing is, teachers don't teach anymore, they read scripts and if they get caught not reading the script (at least in our district) they are tagged with a "plan of assistance." Principals formally walk through twice, informally four plus times and the head of the district-curriculum also makes at least one unscheduled walk through. Teachers better be aligned with what they posted for lesson plans that day, down to the eact words they say. The craft of teaching-like finding teachable moments or doing on the spot adjustments based on what each teacher thinks their class needs in real time- is gone. How is selling education going to magically make teachers better? If you think student performace is solely a teacher issue, you are so sadly mistaken. Poor school perforamance is a breakdown of the family problem. Kids don't have the emotional/social foundation to succeed in any part of life and the easiest thing to blame is the school. Everything is the school's fault. Kid can't read-blame last year's teacher. Kid can't do math-must be a curriculum problem. Kid can't get along with anyone-blame the school and the other kids. I wouldn't be surprised to see "school" not even be a physical place in a few years. Parent's and their lazy kids seemingly like virtual school. Out district has seen massive growth in the last three years of kids that are opting out of traditional school and enrolling in online school. No start time and learn in yout PJs. Sounds like a prosocial movement, doesn't it?

Parent's need to quit be wussys. Criticism is for self improvement and it doesn't mean that kids are inheriantly flawed. A bad grade is not going to ruin their futures or automatiically eliminate them from Harvard. Failure is often necessary to fuel desire. Kids sometimes don't get along-doesn't make it bullying. But mild bullying is necessary to teach kids how to stand up for themselves and for others.

If you really want to see the difference in student outcomes per school you only need to look at one demographic-percentage of single parent families.
Sometimes I wonder what schools people are associated with.

 
Bad teachers are like any other industry- yes they are some bad ones, just like police officers, nurses, doctors, etc but most are adequate or above. The thing is, teachers don't teach anymore, they read scripts and if they get caught not reading the script (at least in our district) they are tagged with a "plan of assistance." Principals formally walk through twice, informally four plus times and the head of the district-curriculum also makes at least one unscheduled walk through. Teachers better be aligned with what they posted for lesson plans that day, down to the eact words they say. The craft of teaching-like finding teachable moments or doing on the spot adjustments based on what each teacher thinks their class needs in real time- is gone. How is selling education going to magically make teachers better? If you think student performace is solely a teacher issue, you are so sadly mistaken. Poor school perforamance is a breakdown of the family problem. Kids don't have the emotional/social foundation to succeed in any part of life and the easiest thing to blame is the school. Everything is the school's fault. Kid can't read-blame last year's teacher. Kid can't do math-must be a curriculum problem. Kid can't get along with anyone-blame the school and the other kids. I wouldn't be surprised to see "school" not even be a physical place in a few years. Parent's and their lazy kids seemingly like virtual school. Out district has seen massive growth in the last three years of kids that are opting out of traditional school and enrolling in online school. No start time and learn in yout PJs. Sounds like a prosocial movement, doesn't it?

Parent's need to quit be wussys. Criticism is for self improvement and it doesn't mean that kids are inheriantly flawed. A bad grade is not going to ruin their futures or automatiically eliminate them from Harvard. Failure is often necessary to fuel desire. Kids sometimes don't get along-doesn't make it bullying. But mild bullying is necessary to teach kids how to stand up for themselves and for others.

If you really want to see the difference in student outcomes per school you only need to look at one demographic-percentage of single parent families.
Sometimes I wonder what schools people are associated with.
I don't understand why you're being so vague in your replies on this topic. Like this reply and your reply to me which was almost a one-liner. You don't usually do that. This is one of those topics where people aren't that emotional or set on any one solution so I don't see why you're not making your opinion clearer.
 
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If you really want to see the difference in student outcomes per school you only need to look at one demographic-percentage of single parent families.
Really good point here. Much better than my breakfast example. It's also highly related with income. Another thing highly related to income is the parents' education - the likelihood they graduated college or even high school. These things are all big factors in a child's learning. Home environment is extremely important.
I would understand a system that required a gradual improvement, based on a score the school achieved at the start of the system (a baseline). But giving every school/teacher in the U.S. a flat requirement never made sense. A flat rate of improvement however, might make sense.

 
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It truly is self perpetuating. Sad to see these wonderful little souls realize in about fifth grade what their adult life is going to look like. Poverty sucks for kids

 
Bad teachers are like any other industry- yes they are some bad ones, just like police officers, nurses, doctors, etc but most are adequate or above. The thing is, teachers don't teach anymore, they read scripts and if they get caught not reading the script (at least in our district) they are tagged with a "plan of assistance." Principals formally walk through twice, informally four plus times and the head of the district-curriculum also makes at least one unscheduled walk through. Teachers better be aligned with what they posted for lesson plans that day, down to the eact words they say. The craft of teaching-like finding teachable moments or doing on the spot adjustments based on what each teacher thinks their class needs in real time- is gone. How is selling education going to magically make teachers better? If you think student performace is solely a teacher issue, you are so sadly mistaken. Poor school perforamance is a breakdown of the family problem. Kids don't have the emotional/social foundation to succeed in any part of life and the easiest thing to blame is the school. Everything is the school's fault. Kid can't read-blame last year's teacher. Kid can't do math-must be a curriculum problem. Kid can't get along with anyone-blame the school and the other kids. I wouldn't be surprised to see "school" not even be a physical place in a few years. Parent's and their lazy kids seemingly like virtual school. Out district has seen massive growth in the last three years of kids that are opting out of traditional school and enrolling in online school. No start time and learn in yout PJs. Sounds like a prosocial movement, doesn't it?

Parent's need to quit be wussys. Criticism is for self improvement and it doesn't mean that kids are inheriantly flawed. A bad grade is not going to ruin their futures or automatiically eliminate them from Harvard. Failure is often necessary to fuel desire. Kids sometimes don't get along-doesn't make it bullying. But mild bullying is necessary to teach kids how to stand up for themselves and for others.

If you really want to see the difference in student outcomes per school you only need to look at one demographic-percentage of single parent families.
Sometimes I wonder what schools people are associated with.
I don't understand why you're being so vague in your replies on this topic. Like this reply and your reply to me which was almost a one-liner. You don't usually do that. This is one of those topics where people aren't that emotional or set on any one solution so I don't see why you're not making your opinion clearer.
My question to you was a legitimate question about how to handle bad teachers. I personally think that is an area where we could see improvement.

There are good teachers coming out of college who have s hard time finding a position while some teacher is just biding time on tenure.

As for the other post....I'll admit I over reacted when I read that teachers just stand up and read a script.

If they are doing that, refer to my first two paragraphs.

I said what I did because I don't find that with most teachers. Being a teacher is much more than that.

 
Bad teachers are like any other industry- yes they are some bad ones, just like police officers, nurses, doctors, etc but most are adequate or above. The thing is, teachers don't teach anymore, they read scripts and if they get caught not reading the script (at least in our district) they are tagged with a "plan of assistance." Principals formally walk through twice, informally four plus times and the head of the district-curriculum also makes at least one unscheduled walk through. Teachers better be aligned with what they posted for lesson plans that day, down to the eact words they say. The craft of teaching-like finding teachable moments or doing on the spot adjustments based on what each teacher thinks their class needs in real time- is gone. How is selling education going to magically make teachers better? If you think student performace is solely a teacher issue, you are so sadly mistaken. Poor school perforamance is a breakdown of the family problem. Kids don't have the emotional/social foundation to succeed in any part of life and the easiest thing to blame is the school. Everything is the school's fault. Kid can't read-blame last year's teacher. Kid can't do math-must be a curriculum problem. Kid can't get along with anyone-blame the school and the other kids. I wouldn't be surprised to see "school" not even be a physical place in a few years. Parent's and their lazy kids seemingly like virtual school. Out district has seen massive growth in the last three years of kids that are opting out of traditional school and enrolling in online school. No start time and learn in yout PJs. Sounds like a prosocial movement, doesn't it?

Parent's need to quit be wussys. Criticism is for self improvement and it doesn't mean that kids are inheriantly flawed. A bad grade is not going to ruin their futures or automatiically eliminate them from Harvard. Failure is often necessary to fuel desire. Kids sometimes don't get along-doesn't make it bullying. But mild bullying is necessary to teach kids how to stand up for themselves and for others.

If you really want to see the difference in student outcomes per school you only need to look at one demographic-percentage of single parent families.
Sometimes I wonder what schools people are associated with.
I don't understand why you're being so vague in your replies on this topic. Like this reply and your reply to me which was almost a one-liner. You don't usually do that. This is one of those topics where people aren't that emotional or set on any one solution so I don't see why you're not making your opinion clearer.
My question to you was a legitimate question about how to handle bad teachers. I personally think that is an area where we could see improvement.

There are good teachers coming out of college who have s hard time finding a position while some teacher is just biding time on tenure.

As for the other post....I'll admit I over reacted when I read that teachers just stand up and read a script.

If they are doing that, refer to my first two paragraphs.

I said what I did because I don't find that with most teachers. Being a teacher is much more than that.
It should be more than that. But with NCLB and basically being forced to teach to the standardized tests, that's what it turned into at a lot of schools. A lot of schools require their teachers to follow their lesson plans to a T. It's not a matter of replacing teachers who "read a script." The poster is saying they're basically forced to do that due to the requirements that started with NCLB.

Like I already said, bad teachers should be handled similarly to how they were before NCLB. Maybe with some minor tweaks if there are a lot of bad tenured teachers - I don't know. We had been improving steadily in reading and math since 1990. NCLB didn't improve the rate of improvement but it ruined a lot of people's careers and shut down schools.

 
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To add to the thought that educational outcomes start with parenting, it's also a cultural thing, IMO.

We will lag in STEM in a context where science denial is legitimate. We will lag in reading if we see ivory tower liberal arts elites as idiots with useless pursuits. We will lack in education, period, if attainment of high levels of education isn't merely not valued, but actively devalued in favor of trade schools and protecting manufacturing jobs that will disappear regardless and then leave people without degrees left behind.

America, on the whole, has enough proportion of lackadaisical or even hostile attitudes towards advanced education that national trends can't be a surprise on these topics.

You can only accomplish so much without changing the culture. We can't and shouldn't be taking for granted our superpower status.

 
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