The Angry Violent Right

Landlord said:
seems like a big argument of semantics

does my mom like Nascar because of the circumstances of her friends and her parents liking it, the bars having it on growing up, etc., or is that part of a culture? I'd say the answer is yes, because they sound like the same thing. 
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If you say all white people love Nascar and have for hundreds of years that's culture.  If you talk about your mom and the family liking the sport, then I'd say that's tradition.

I suppose it is semantics to some, but I see a huge difference and using it liberally to define a race's or nationality's traits, circumstances, issues or deficiencies is lazy.

 
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NM11046 said:
If you say all white people love Nascar and have for hundreds of years that's culture.  If you talk about your mom and the family liking the sport, then I'd say that's tradition.

I suppose it is semantics to some, but I see a huge difference and using it liberally to define a race's or nationality's traits, circumstances, issues or deficiencies is lazy.
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What if I say part of midwestern middle class small town white culture is enjoying NASCAR?

 
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Landlord said:
What if I say part of midwestern middle class small town white people is enjoying NASCAR?
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That's a great hobby!  

If you tell me that white middle american luthrans for hundreds of years go to church to celebrate Nascar on the first day of the month and have a special food that they eat on Nascar holidays maybe that's culture.

I know you're poking me on this Landlord, because you can't honestly tell me that you don't see a difference in Thanksgiving being an american cultural tradition and nascar?  Kwanza and Bakra Eid and native american's belief in animal spirits and single parent households?  Come on.

 
NM11046 said:
I know you're poking me on this Landlord, because you can't honestly tell me that you don't see a difference in Thanksgiving being an american cultural tradition and nascar?  Kwanza and Bakra Eid and native american's belief in animal spirits and single parent households?  Come on.
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I can see the difference between Thanksgiving and NASCAR, but both would very sensibly be examples of culture imo. 

Like if I was trying to explain American culture to a foreigner, I would mention things like Christmas and the 4th of July. And I'd also mention things like college football and the Super Bowl. And I'd also mention things like huge portions of cheap food and Yeezys and Beyonce and Hollywood and Hot Rods and Starbucks and guns and individualism and a million other things. 

That's why I don't understand your argument because it seems entirely a semantics one. idk what OTHusker said wrong in that regard, but my guess is that you are associating claims of unsavory elements of certain cultures as tantamount to saying that those things are the fault of the people in the culture. Which I don't think is the case.

 
Landlord said:
In my experience these two separate things are very intimately related and idk how you can extrapolate what does or doesn't qualify as either one or the other.
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Of course they are intimately related. That's the whole reason why this discussion exists. The point I'm trying to get at is how asinine it is to demand that people change "their ways" without acknowledging the circumstances that created those ways. Blaming a people's culture of female figureheads (especially in this day and age) is utterly laughable. The article reference by OTH was doing just that. It was blaming Africa Culture for the issue, while completely side stepping slavery separating families, Jim Crow laws, the war on drugs, and all the other forms of institutional racsim that have existed since white men set foot on North American soil. It's far easier to blame a people for their problems than it is to acknowledge that maybe they were never given a chance to begin with.

 
I don't know about blame par se, but idk if or why we can't point out bad realities of certain cultures and also at the same time point out all the internal and external forces, current and past, that made them. 

There's no need for blame, imo. We can leave it at, "Here's the reality. What are you going to do about it? What am I going to do about it?"

 
Landlord said:
I don't know about blame par se, but idk if or why we can't point out bad realities of certain cultures and also at the same time point out all the internal and external forces, current and past, that made them. 

There's no need for blame, imo. We can leave it at, "Here's the reality. What are you going to do about it? What am I going to do about it?"
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That would be nice but I feel like we can't get to the point of what are we going to do about it, because any effort that has been tried in the past is immediately shot down as a failure. In a vacuum everything looks like a failure because there is no context to understand why you don't see a significant impact you are hoping for.  

 
knapplc said:
Again, please disregard the statistics being spewed by the Trumpian "college."

It's the same as if we gathered data from Black Lives Matter and presented it as factual. It's biased, it's wrong, disregard it.

Here's an unbiased look. Also, here's an explanation for why such research is very difficult - until 2016, police didn't have to report these statistics.


 
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Here are the same conclusions that there are no race bias in police shootings from a study done by a black professor from Harvard 

Published in the New York times

he is the youngest tenured professor at Harvard and winner of the prestigious Clark medal 

is that a good enough source?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.amp.html

 
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OTHusker said:
Here are the same conclusions that there are no race bias in police shootings from a study done by a black professor from Harvard 

Published in the New York times

he is the youngest tenured professor at Harvard and winner of the prestigious Clark medal 

is that a good enough source?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.amp.html
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One conclusion that over the entirety of police shootings the data doesn't show racial bias.

A conclusion that also did not determine whether certain specific shootings are free of racial bias.

A conclusion that also did determine plenty of racial bias in all other forms of treatment.

A conclusion that also noted,

"Moreover, the results do not mean that the general public’s perception of racism in policing is misguided. Lethal uses of force are exceedingly rare. There were 1.6 million arrests in Houston in the years Mr. Fryer studied. Officers fired their weapons 507 times. What is far more common are nonlethal uses of force. Mr. Fryer found racial differences, which is in accord with public perception and other studies. In New York City, blacks stopped by the police were about 17 percent more likely to experience use of force, according to stop-and-frisk records kept between 2003 and 2013. (In the later year, a judge ruled that the tactic as employed then was unconstitutional.)"
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In other words, there's a big problem that needs addressing and needs conversation, not denial.

 
Landlord said:
One conclusion that over the entirety of police shootings the data doesn't show racial bias.

A conclusion that also did not determine whether certain specific shootings are free of racial bias.

A conclusion that also did determine plenty of racial bias in all other forms of treatment.

A conclusion that also noted,

In other words, there's a big problem that needs addressing and needs conversation, not denial.
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Interesting 

the study showed blacks were 20 percent less likely to be shot than whites 

since blacks were 17 percent more likely to be more aggressively handled in non shooting incidents And that is a big problem for you 

less than 1 in 5 experiences for blacks was deemed worse than that of their white counterparts 

is the 20 percent figure for shooting bias

towards whites a big problem for whites since 17 percent was a big problem for blacks??  

You guys will have to spin like Tasmanian devils to get out from under this one

black Harvard tenured guy 

in depth study hands on 

 
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OTHusker said:
Interesting 

the study showed blacks were 20 percent less likely to be shot than whites 

since blacks were 17 percent more likely to be more aggressively handled in non shooting incidents And that is a big problem for you 

less than 1 in 5 experiences for blacks was deemed worse than that of their white counterparts 

is the 20 percent figure for shooting bias

towards whites a big problem for whites since 17 percent was a big problem for blacks??  

You guys will have to spin like Tasmanian devils to get out from under this one

black Harvard tenured guy 

in depth study hands on 
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Honest question - are you like a freshman in high school or something?

Because your ability for reading comprehension and to understand how numbers work is terrible.

 
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OTHusker said:
I have zero problem with body cams or police accountability

if a cop is wRong prosecute them
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This sounds good, but even in cases like Philando Castille where the officer was clearly in the wrong caught on video officers never get more than a paid vacation it seems like. I have yet to see an officer put away for misuse of lethal force.

 
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