The Christian Response to Jason Collins

lo country said:
carlfense said:
lo country said:
So allowing late term abortions is not legislating the idea of someone elses morality or agenda? Gay marriage? Raising taxes on the wealthy? Gun control etc...... The list goes on on on. Both sides, what ever they may be do what they can to implement their policy. Do you really think that the advancement of Obama's policy are in line with Christianity? (as it relates to moral issues?) Not economic, foreign etc......
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Really?
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If you were only talking about what you've classified as "moral issues" why did you choose to include "raising taxes on the wealthy?" :huh:

 
carlfense said:
lo country said:
carlfense said:
lo country said:
So allowing late term abortions is not legislating the idea of someone elses morality or agenda? Gay marriage? Raising taxes on the wealthy? Gun control etc...... The list goes on on on. Both sides, what ever they may be do what they can to implement their policy. Do you really think that the advancement of Obama's policy are in line with Christianity? (as it relates to moral issues?) Not economic, foreign etc......
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Really?
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If you were only talking about what you've classified as "moral issues" why did you choose to include "raising taxes on the wealthy?" :huh:
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to some extent, all issues are moral. but the point is that the morality of your prescribed religion does not get to trump the law or individual rights.

 
sd said:
to some extent, all issues are moral. but the point is that the morality of your prescribed religion does not get to trump the law or individual rights.
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This is true . . . but it doesn't do much to clarify lo country's distinction . . .

 
carlfense said:
lo country said:
carlfense said:
lo country said:
So allowing late term abortions is not legislating the idea of someone elses morality or agenda? Gay marriage? Raising taxes on the wealthy? Gun control etc...... The list goes on on on. Both sides, what ever they may be do what they can to implement their policy. Do you really think that the advancement of Obama's policy are in line with Christianity? (as it relates to moral issues?) Not economic, foreign etc......
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Really?
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If you were only talking about what you've classified as "moral issues" why did you choose to include "raising taxes on the wealthy?" :huh:
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Just showing "hot button topics" if you will. People have certain opinions, moral, fiscal, personal etc they they feel strongly about and will try to advance their beliefs (agendas). Just trying to show that we all do this hence including other areas other than moral (economics and Constitution). Not just Christians with moral issues, but everyone. The moral issues (agenda) are easier to see and what the thread was about.

 
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The problem of "not seeing other peoples' views" is more on the Christian end. The Christians tend to try to legislate their views onto the general population for 'their own good' which is not what the non-religious are doing.
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What a total load of crap.

Everyone who pushes for some type of legislation is pushing their beliefs and views onto the general population "for their own good".

What a self righteous statement that is completely false.

 
carlfense said:
JJHusker1 said:
I guess if you're in a majority category on an issue your views and opinions don't have to be tolerated by others.
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There's that persecution complex again. Someone disagreeing with you or mocking you doesn't mean that your views or opinions aren't tolerated. :hmmph

JJHusker1 said:
It would appear that in many cases you are relegated to the expectation of only having to tolerate others views and must keep your opinions to yourself or run the risk of public ridicule.
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This is quite wonderful, really. We don't even need sources to show the persecution complex . . . we've got our own examples right here.
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Glad I could be of use for something :B) BTW, nice job of editing my full comment to remove any chance of conveying the intended tone and meaning :thumbs Keep up the good work.

 
BigRedBuster said:
The problem of "not seeing other peoples' views" is more on the Christian end. The Christians tend to try to legislate their views onto the general population for 'their own good' which is not what the non-religious are doing.
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What a total load of crap.

Everyone who pushes for some type of legislation is pushing their beliefs and views onto the general population "for their own good".

What a self righteous statement that is completely false.
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I know, right. That was exactly my reaction to this. But ssshhh....... we better keep it on the down low. Lots of people here think it's a one way street.

 
JJHusker1 said:
strigori said:
The problem of "not seeing other peoples' views" is more on the Christian end. The Christians tend to try to legislate their views onto the general population for 'their own good' which is not what the non-religious are doing. "Keep religion out of the law" is not the same thing. Christians are free to believe what they choose, but telling those not in their group how to behave is at issue. And honestly, Christians in this country donning the martyr cloak is getting old. Telling me to 'tolerate' their views while trying to legislate them on me is hypocrisy at its finest.
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This is so much bullsh#t. Actually it is an over the top example of bigotry and stereotyping a whole group of people, Christians in this case. You are blaming all Christians for the actions of a few. If I or anyone else did this with any other group of people the whole board would be crawling up our a$$. But since you did it towards Christians, you'll probably receive a bunch of +1's and words of encouragement. That's not a martyr complex, it's a fact.
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How is it BS? If you fail to reign in your 'leaders' you are as much to blame. Church leaders get on TV and spew crap like a natural disaster is God's payback for tolerating gays. GOP elected officials continually call for religion in laws every single day. Does pastor Bob at the local church preach what the named leaders are preaching? Don't know, and don't care. As long as Christians fail to police their own members from spewing hate and stupidity it is going to get attributed to the whole group.

If you actually paid attention, nothing about the pro-gay marriage crowd is an attack on religion. Its simply, get religion out of the law. No one is trying to force any church to do ceremonies, they just want the same legal protections. Like avoiding inheritance tax, next of kin, and that sort of thing.

 
lo country said:
strigori said:
lo country said:
So if Christians try to defend a position it is ridiculous. ie pointing out perceived persecution. I really think it depends on what side of the fence you are on. You can google all day and see where there is an alarming trend, IMO, to label Evangelical Christianity as hate speech. I do not see the same movement to limit Islamic teachings. That religion is no more hateful than Christianity. It is the fringe elements that are. No evangelical Christianity is not a fringe element. I really do not see that. BUT take your own opinions out of it and look at the issue, again IMO. Limit/defining speech is an attack on our fundamental rights to freedom of speech and religion. If the government or business world can define free speech in a manner to limit it, what else can they limit.

Chic-Fil-A possibly denied building permits for their views o Homosexuality. What if the town mayor was pro gun and did not allow any anti-gun businesses to move in based upon their verbal and written statements? A mayor denies a business license to a company that supports LGBT issues etc.... Just like people arguing to ban guns yet are up in arms about the lack of Miranda for the Boston bomber or the warrantless searches, etc.....A limit on any Constitutional right can ultimately end up being a limit on others. Including the ones you choose to like and/or support.

I have also seen statistics that have been posted identifying this nation as 77% Christian. I wish. There is a complete difference in identifying as a Christian and being one. A Huge difference. Religion vs Relationship. When one thinks of a Christian, IMO, it is a person who has salvation in Jesus. Billy Graham one time stated that approximately 15% of the church was actually saved (relationship with Jesus Christ). Other evangelists are slightly higher or lower. Huge difference than what people claim.

Tolerance goes both ways. It is funny a Christian tries to defend a position and is openly mocked, ridiculed etc..... That isn't tolerance. Every group, right or wrong, can always find a way to put themselves on the receiving end. Look at comments in this section alone. Not a lot of tolerance or seeing other peoples views.
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The problem of "not seeing other peoples' views" is more on the Christian end. The Christians tend to try to legislate their views onto the general population for 'their own good' which is not what the non-religious are doing. "Keep religion out of the law" is not the same thing. Christians are free to believe what they choose, but telling those not in their group how to behave is at issue. And honestly, Christians in this country donning the martyr cloak is getting old. Telling me to 'tolerate' their views while trying to legislate them on me is hypocrisy at its finest.

To those inside, they will never see the hate coming from the Evangelicals. If you think the likes of Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson are tolerant... What they have said, on TV even, can't really be viewed in any other light.

You don't see people decrying Islamic teachings here, because no one is shouting them on street corners, TV, Twitter, Facebook or any other host of media. If an Islamic group started pushing for women to have rights taken away, and start covering their heads in public, I assure you the backlash would be fierce.
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So how are you seeing the Christians view? Legislating morality? What about the Pentagon denying free speech? What hate has Billy Graham spoken? What hate did Jesus speak of in the Bible. You say that homosexuality is a sin, you are a homophobe. Pro life you are a right wing extremist. The left is tolerant of Christian views? Really? So believing in the truths of the Bible make you an extremist in your opinion? The martyr cloak of the Christians keeping me down is also getting old.

So allowing late term abortions is not legislating the idea of someone elses morality or agenda? Gay marriage? Raising taxes on the wealthy? Gun control etc...... The list goes on on on. Both sides, what ever they may be do what they can to implement their policy. Do you really think that the advancement of Obama's policy are in line with Christianity?

In regards to Islam, do you really think that they would be given the same scrutiny as Christians. You say there would be if they were preaching on the corners. Two fundamentalist Islamics kill 3 Americans and injure over 100 in Boston and barely a peep about Islam. Benghazi and it was blamed on a 6 month old video, not radical Islam. The DHS literature on terrorism barely mentions Islam. You really think they would be treated the same. Go ahead and have SNL mock Muhammad.

To use your own words, being on the inside you can't even see the ideology of those you follow. Men are flawed............on both sides. It is a fallen world.
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The left has spent the last couple decades slowing suing religion out of the law. Here is a couple smaller ones.

Blue laws, no alcohol sales on Sunday, or at least until a certain time on Sunday(generally after the church services have ended)

Censorship. Just look at the way language can be used on TV now as opposed to decades ago. Or how about how "damn" in a song is fine, but "god damn" gets a radio edit?

How about the West Virginia GOP guy who wants to outlaw oral and anal sex between any people in the state?

Not a week goes by I don't read news stories about someone or another trying to push laws based on religion on the population.

Blame the GOP for making the tactical move to make themselves the party of Christianity. Things like the economy didn't have religion injected into the debate before the move was made.

Its not about homosexuality being a 'sin' (which is a BS concept to begin with) that ends up being the sticking point. Its trying to beat society down to protect everyone from 'sins' that causes the problem. I'm sure I speak for a great many when I say "I don't need to be protected from myself"

 
Someone said:
Recently, the Kansas Catholic Conference supported a bill that makes it legal to fire someone, kick them out of the apartment you are renting them, refuse to provide them with any service your business might offer, -- basically treat someone like a black in the south between 1870 and 1960-something -- just for being gay.

Further, if you work for the state (such as a University professor) you are free to opt out of your employer's anti-discrimination policy--think "I am not allowing that gay student in my class: I don't care if he needs it to graduate". Finally, no local government can enforce their own (non-federally protected) anti-discrimination policy.

All under the pretext of protecting individual religous freedoms.

Persecution is the systematic mistreatment of an individual or group by another group. I have to say, it is hard for me to NOT see the Kansas Catholic Conference as the persecutors in this situation.

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The last time I posted this, there was a formating issue.

This bill is nw the LAW.

Why would a Catholic group want to persecute others?

In Kansas, LGBT persons would have more rights if they declared themselves a CHURCH.

 
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Strigori- A couple points. 1- I have zero influence on church leaders. And the biggest problems I see within my religion (and others) is due to individuals acting outside the boundaries of what the church teaches and professes. Sure there are some cases like the pedophile coverups that seem to wind there way to the upper levels but I still view that as the shortcomings of men and not what my religion stands for. I can continue to be Christian and Catholic as long as I know what that means and what it is supposed to look like regardless of how many do bad deeds in the name of the religion. For me it's more of a personal thing than something bigger. I suppose I should ignore those who want to tear it down based on that but I still feel the urge to stick up for what I believe is good about it.

2- I do not feel anything about the pro gay marriage issue is any kind of attack on religion. I don't understand why you addressed the "if you were paying attention" part of that to me. I agree with you on that.

3- the thing in your post that I called bullsh#t was your claim that the problem of not seeing others views was more on the Christian end. That is simply wishful thinking and misguided. Christians as people are no more or less prone to that than anyone. Sure there are some in high profile or powerful positions that may want to get their way at the expense of others but that is a human condition and there is no monopoly on it based on being Christian. I will agree that some of the most extreme and ridiculous positions on the gay rights issue come from supposed Christians but please refrain from lumping all into the one bucket.

 
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