The Right to Carry a Gun

getting ready for church 

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There are mentally ill people all over the world.

There aren't gun massacres all over the world.

It's not mental illness. Stop believing the propaganda.

 
knapplc said:
There are mentally ill people all over the world.

There aren't gun massacres all over the world.

It's not mental illness. Stop believing the propaganda.
Click to expand...
But it’s not as easy for mentally ill people to get guns in other countries.

Dont get me wrong (either side), I don’t have any answers. But there are a couple things I know and believe.

1- Anyone who commits these gun crimes has something wrong with them. Mental illness, lack of respect for human life, something.....and it’s not normal. Guns seem to be the weapon of choice and definitely can contribute to a higher toll but guns themselves are not the core problem.

2- Responsible law abiding citizens who have guns are not the problem. As soon as a person crosses that line and commits one of these mass shootings they cannot be counted in the responsible law abiding citizen category.

I think the problem could definitely be lessened by having fewer guns in circulation and I also think it should be tougher to acquire guns. Maybe it should be treated as a privilege more than a “right” and maybe potential gun owners should be required to prove proficiency, responsibility and a real need or purpose for the gun they want to acquire. But I firmly believe guns themselves are not the problem. They are an inanimate object that will only hurt others when in the wrong hands. I just don’t know how far we have to go or what exactly we need to do to keep them out of the wrong hands. The only thing I know is that we have to do more than we are because what we are doing is not working. I’d sure like to see more focus on the people problem rather than the object problem. I just wish the solution(s) were more obvious and that fewer people were opposed to doing anything because of some stupid crap written in a 240 year old document.

 
RedDenver said:
Do mentally ill people have telekinesis or something that allows them to endanger hundreds of lives?
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Are gun murders the only type of murders happening in this country?  Last I checked, they aren't.  It's possible to understand that gun laws need fixing AND understand that if we didn't breed nut job after nut job, gun control wouldn't be the problem it is today.

knapplc said:
There are mentally ill people all over the world.

There aren't gun massacres all over the world.

It's not mental illness. Stop believing the propaganda.
Click to expand...


Yes there are.

Not as many, no.  But they do happen, we just have the most.  Not solely because of the gun laws but also because of the insane population.

It's both, stop only pushing one narrative.

 
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JJ Husker said:
But it’s not as easy for mentally ill people to get guns in other countries.

Dont get me wrong (either side), I don’t have any answers. But there are a couple things I know and believe.

1- Anyone who commits these gun crimes has something wrong with them. Mental illness, lack of respect for human life, something.....and it’s not normal. Guns seem to be the weapon of choice and definitely can contribute to a higher toll but guns themselves are not the core problem.

2- Responsible law abiding citizens who have guns are not the problem. As soon as a person crosses that line and commits one of these mass shootings they cannot be counted in the responsible law abiding citizen category.

I think the problem could definitely be lessened by having fewer guns in circulation and I also think it should be tougher to acquire guns. Maybe it should be treated as a privilege more than a “right” and maybe potential gun owners should be required to prove proficiency, responsibility and a real need or purpose for the gun they want to acquire. But I firmly believe guns themselves are not the problem. They are an inanimate object that will only hurt others when in the wrong hands. I just don’t know how far we have to go or what exactly we need to do to keep them out of the wrong hands. The only thing I know is that we have to do more than we are because what we are doing is not working. I’d sure like to see more focus on the people problem rather than the object problem. I just wish the solution(s) were more obvious and that fewer people were opposed to doing anything because of some stupid crap written in a 240 year old document.
Click to expand...




America has a culture that hero-worships the gun-wielding strong man. From way back in the 30s with the advent of the Western movies, through John Wayne, Dirty Harry, Die Hard, the Terminator, Han Solo, The Matrix... It's a massive list. 

Mental illness is not the problem. It's the glorification of guns and the fact that they are so readily available. 

The claim that you have to be mentally ill to commit these crimes is wrong on its face and we all know it, because we've all experienced road rage. Sane, rational people get frustrated and act out. If there's a gun at hand, boom! You're a statistic.

 
knapplc said:
America has a culture that hero-worships the gun-wielding strong man. From way back in the 30s with the advent of the Western movies, through John Wayne, Dirty Harry, Die Hard, the Terminator, Han Solo, The Matrix... It's a massive list. 

Mental illness is not the problem. It's the glorification of guns and the fact that they are so readily available. 

The claim that you have to be mentally ill to commit these crimes is wrong on its face and we all know it, because we've all experienced road rage. Sane, rational people get frustrated and act out. If there's a gun at hand, boom! You're a statistic.
Click to expand...


Did you just equate road rage with someone who would prepare and load multiple guns, put on full body armor and walk into a theatre/school/mall and start shooting? Either you don't understand the problem or you're trying too hard to make it fit inside your narrative box.

Do you really believe these mass shooters don't have mental problems, that they just instantly snapped and had guns at the ready? I don't think you believe that because you're smarter than that.

Where we can agree is that it's entirely too easy to get guns and that virtually anyone can get one with little effort. But the core problem of mass shootings is not hero/gun worship. Certainly that plays into the aversion of adopting sensible gun laws but it has nothing to do with the person who commits the crime. I'm not saying mental illness is the only problem but it has to be near the top of a list that also contains hopelessness, irrational anger, bad parenting and failure to properly educate.

Edit-

Look at it this way. We’ve all experienced road rage, depression, frustration, anger, hopelessness, a pretty wide and full gamut of emotions and situations and we all have ready access to guns and we all live in this hero/gun worshipping society. But how many people have we killed? How many of us have shot even one person let alone multiples?

There is something happening in the minds of the people who react this way. And there is something we as a society are doing that is contributing to these people not being able to deal properly with their lives.

 
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My early life and work has carried me to areas of high crime, most of those crimes being gun violence.  I've known quite well many offenders.  I still visit two of them in state pens here in the midwest.   Trying to count all that I have known who have used guns illegally it looks to be about 78 or 79 over a period of the fifty some years of my 74 years being alive. 

I carry a gun everywhere I go that is legal to do so.  No.  Not because I fear those people.  The reasons I carry have a lot less to do with those people than with the ordinary people who drink and lose it, smoke and lose it, see a tailgater in their mirror and lose it, etc ad infinitum.  I'm a calm person by nature, and even more calm when I carry as I adhere to principles brought out in my MP military training and much more recently in my Concealed Carry Permit class here in Nebraska.  I, like almost all responsible gun carriers, react kindly to perceived slights or traffic potential hassles;  it would take a true life and death situation by another person for me to even think of my gun out there. 

"Mental illness" is a HUGE net that covers almost every human on Earth at some point in their lives, and some for most of their lives.  It's not a perfect indicator of who should have access to firearms (or sharp objects, or hammers, or eye drops).  Background checks help a bit with those who have already drawn attention to themselves by committing domestic violence or other violet crimes.  Those checks can fail, of course, due to overlload and time requirements on the FBI and other involved agencies. 

Is there any course of action that could stem gun violence in the U.S.?  In some countries it's about disallowing firearms to various degrees, some even not allowed at all.  And some countries with little to no restrictions have very low gun crime, such as some Scandinavian countries.  For us it has to be education.  I feel that the NRA has it right when it comes to that.  I part company with them, though, on their scorched Earth approach to fending off all gun laws, that's just crazy.  We obviously need gun laws.  But we have to be clever. 

I  think it's very much about culture and how the country was born.  Here in the U.S. it was about violent revolution, and several violent domestic wars over the past two and a half centuries (think it has been just the Revolutionary War and then the Civil War?   Nope:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_the_United_States).Guns are a big part of what shaped us and it has been often and it has been engrained in our being as Americans. 

I like the approach of permitted concealed carry, with classes, but I feel those classes should be longer and with more teaching on the responsibilities and mindset of a gun carrier.  I also think that those same classes should be required for the purchase of guns, not just for carry. 

 
JJ Husker said:
Did you just equate road rage with someone who would prepare and load multiple guns, put on full body armor and walk into a theatre/school/mall and start shooting? Either you don't understand the problem or you're trying too hard to make it fit inside your narrative box.

Do you really believe these mass shooters don't have mental problems, that they just instantly snapped and had guns at the ready? I don't think you believe that because you're smarter than that.

Where we can agree is that it's entirely too easy to get guns and that virtually anyone can get one with little effort. But the core problem of mass shootings is not hero/gun worship. Certainly that plays into the aversion of adopting sensible gun laws but it has nothing to do with the person who commits the crime. I'm not saying mental illness is the only problem but it has to be near the top of a list that also contains hopelessness, irrational anger, bad parenting and failure to properly educate.
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Exactly...just because there is not some box that can be checked for people that use guns to kill others, it is so clearly a mental illness.  

It doesn't mean "crazy" or sociopath or any other neatly placed term but if you use a gun or knife or bat to kill people, you are not mentally stable.  

It is amazing that a 14 year old kid can try cutting themselves once and we immediately have 1,000 medical terms from MD's and shrinks as to why that 14 year old is not mentally well but a person can buy a gun, load that gun, tweet out creepy s#!t about hurting people, create a plan to carry out their killing, go carry about that plan and kill people...but we pretend like like they are not f#&%ed in the head.

And even thought they are mentally ill, they still need to be punished.  

 
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JJ Husker said:
Did you just equate road rage with someone who would prepare and load multiple guns, put on full body armor and walk into a theatre/school/mall and start shooting? Either you don't understand the problem or you're trying too hard to make it fit inside your narrative box.

Do you really believe these mass shooters don't have mental problems, that they just instantly snapped and had guns at the ready? I don't think you believe that because you're smarter than that.

Where we can agree is that it's entirely too easy to get guns and that virtually anyone can get one with little effort. But the core problem of mass shootings is not hero/gun worship. Certainly that plays into the aversion of adopting sensible gun laws but it has nothing to do with the person who commits the crime. I'm not saying mental illness is the only problem but it has to be near the top of a list that also contains hopelessness, irrational anger, bad parenting and failure to properly educate.

Edit-

Look at it this way. We’ve all experienced road rage, depression, frustration, anger, hopelessness, a pretty wide and full gamut of emotions and situations and we all have ready access to guns and we all live in this hero/gun worshipping society. But how many people have we killed? How many of us have shot even one person let alone multiples?

There is something happening in the minds of the people who react this way. And there is something we as a society are doing that is contributing to these people not being able to deal properly with their lives.
Click to expand...




You are trying WAY to hard to make a big deal out of a simple analogy.

 
Huckleberry Muhammad said:
My early life and work has carried me to areas of high crime, most of those crimes being gun violence.  I've known quite well many offenders.  I still visit two of them in state pens here in the midwest.   Trying to count all that I have known who have used guns illegally it looks to be about 78 or 79 over a period of the fifty some years of my 74 years being alive. 

I carry a gun everywhere I go that is legal to do so.  No.  Not because I fear those people.  The reasons I carry have a lot less to do with those people than with the ordinary people who drink and lose it, smoke and lose it, see a tailgater in their mirror and lose it, etc ad infinitum.  I'm a calm person by nature, and even more calm when I carry as I adhere to principles brought out in my MP military training and much more recently in my Concealed Carry Permit class here in Nebraska.  I, like almost all responsible gun carriers, react kindly to perceived slights or traffic potential hassles;  it would take a true life and death situation by another person for me to even think of my gun out there. 

"Mental illness" is a HUGE net that covers almost every human on Earth at some point in their lives, and some for most of their lives.  It's not a perfect indicator of who should have access to firearms (or sharp objects, or hammers, or eye drops).  Background checks help a bit with those who have already drawn attention to themselves by committing domestic violence or other violet crimes.  Those checks can fail, of course, due to overlload and time requirements on the FBI and other involved agencies. 

Is there any course of action that could stem gun violence in the U.S.?  In some countries it's about disallowing firearms to various degrees, some even not allowed at all.  And some countries with little to no restrictions have very low gun crime, such as some Scandinavian countries.  For us it has to be education.  I feel that the NRA has it right when it comes to that.  I part company with them, though, on their scorched Earth approach to fending off all gun laws, that's just crazy.  We obviously need gun laws.  But we have to be clever. 

I  think it's very much about culture and how the country was born.  Here in the U.S. it was about violent revolution, and several violent domestic wars over the past two and a half centuries (think it has been just the Revolutionary War and then the Civil War?   Nope:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_the_United_States).Guns are a big part of what shaped us and it has been often and it has been engrained in our being as Americans. 

I like the approach of permitted concealed carry, with classes, but I feel those classes should be longer and with more teaching on the responsibilities and mindset of a gun carrier.  I also think that those same classes should be required for the purchase of guns, not just for carry. 
Click to expand...
I pretty much agree with this. But I do feel there are notable differences between mass shooters and the other potential gun violence scenarios you mention. I view “heat of the moment” crimes much differently than planned mass killings. I realize both are problems but my prior comments were intended strictly for the burgeoning mass shooting problems we’ve experienced.

Yes, gun worship and ready access definitely contributes to heat of the moment crimes. But I do not perceive those to be recently surging out of control as are mass shootings and inner city gun crime. In my mind, there 3 basic types of gun violence and two of them have shown increases with the mass shootings obviously standing out.

 
knapplc said:
You are trying WAY to hard to make a big deal out of a simple analogy.
Click to expand...
Sorry. I wasn’t really trying hard at all. Just responding to what was said. I should have known you picked a bad analogy to make  :P

I’m curious, do others compartmentalize gun violence into 3 basic categories like I do?

1- General crime and gang violence.

2- Heat of the moment type things.

3- Planned mass shootings.

I guess I kind of view it as #1 & #3 need dealt with much more urgently than #2. Not that any life taken isn’t important but #2 just seems like it hasn’t really changed and unfortunately it’s just something that has been and always will be. And really some general crime use is the same way. I guess maybe I have 4 categories with general crime and gang use being somewhat different.

 
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