Camping Out: Quarterbacks

[True2tRA]

I have a question on QB play.

The constant complaint of Tommy staring down receivers or not going through is progressions has been a constant complaint with Nebraska QBs for a very long time.

So, my question is, if the WR has options as to what rout they are going to run and the QB is expected to look one way and immediately turn and throw to the receiver, wouldn't that be much more difficult if you don't know exactly what rout the receiver is running on the side that you aren't looking at but eventually going to throw to?

In my mind, it would be MUCH easier having confidence going through progressions if WRs have set routs they are going to run and the QB should know where each WR is on each play.

I obviously have never played QB or WR but...is my thought process on this correct? If the QB has confidence in knowing where the WR is going to be, he is more likely to look off a safety and then back quickly and release the pass. Instead, if the WR has options, the QB has to either watch the WR or at least turn back with enough time to realize what is happening on that side of the field.

Not totally correct. The defense is what determines what route the WR runs, so the QB should be able to say, if they are in a 2 high look, the WR is running this route or if they are blitzing from this side and playing cover 3 over the top they run this route, etc. That's a major simplification but the idea is that you shouldn't ever have to stare down receivers to know where they are going. You read the defense, you know where your receiver 'should' be going.

Okay, so when the defense moves?.................then what exactly?

I think you're wrong on this. I don't care if Tommy's aunt is Miss Cleo, there's no way to read a guys mind and know where he's going to go. Even if they were on the same page, Tommy is still going to look to make sure he's there and he's not gonna be able to let the ball go until the guy gets there. I'd love to hear the fans complain after hearing that. "Tommy, how did you throw 8 interceptions tonight?" "Well, the receiver was supposed to be there, so I just go ahead and throw it where I think he "should" be heading."?

Also, think about the times we have four wide receivers. You're telling me Tommy has to read the defense and know exactly where all four guys are going to be going according to how the defense is lined up? Then, again, when the defense shifts before the snap, you're kind of SOL aren't ya?

No way this is a plan for success.

Actually, he has the right idea, but as he admitted, what he explained is a major simplification. Very major. Honestly, in about two minutes, Tom Brady and a guy like Wes Welker could begin to explain how they worked through their progressions and routes, and the vast majority of this board would be left with a dumb face and drool coming out of their mouth. Now let me stop anyone from saying I'm comparing Brady to Armstrong - all I'm saying is that the passing game, especially at an elite level, is intensely complex. Intensely. Even explaining a route tree to a lot off college football fans would leave them confused.

For starters, some routes are pre-determined, others are option routes. The complexity of the offense creates the complexity of the passing game. I read an article once talking about the Steelers' passing game with Hines Ward - sometimes, Ward would have the option to break at 2, 4, 8, 10 or 12 yards (something like that) into a route. How did Ben know when Ward would make his break? He'd wait for Ward's hips to drop. It's really not as easy as just looking left or right for these guys.

So, the WR's and QB's read the defense and will make pre-snap adjustments based on what they see. Now, in a brief example, let's say you hike the ball. The WR has a choice to run a dig or out route - the corner is playing the receiver loose on the inside and the safety is nowhere to be seen. In this case, it may make sense for the WR to a run a dig route, and both the QB and WR need to see the same thing and be on the same page. Else, if the QB sees an out instead of a dig, the ball may get thrown the wrong way.

While writing this response I found one article that lightly grazes the surface of option routes. If you're interested, here's the link. http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/shutdown-corner/option-routes-why-drive-receivers-crazy-233247212--nfl.html

They have a decent diagram of one play and, as you can see, at least three receivers have one form of an option route, and one of them can go one of four ways. It's up to the QB and WR to see the same thing, the WR to go the correct way, and the QB to still throw an accurate pass.

With college kids having limited time in practice and us using a Freshman then a sophomore QB (Armstrong's first two years) along with college making the WR corp basically changing every year........True's last sentence still is correct.

Also, if a QB is having to watch a WR to see how his hips move before he knows what rout he is running......ummmm....doesn't that basically require the QB to "stare down the WR"? Which...was my first question.

Exactly. Sounds entirely too difficult.

 

[Redux]

Can I blame Tommy for the piss poor throw on 1st and 10 of that drive where he completely botches a wide open Abdullah or was that Abdullah's fault somehow?

Just say you don't like Tommy and move on. Either way, your questions have been good ones, and valuable too. There's actually football discussion! I can tell it's almost football season!

Thats the thing though, I don't dislike Tommy. I'm watching the final drive again and again. I see the receiver being held up, he doesn't get there. I see the other receiver out looking the wrong way. It was not a strong play for them.

My issue is that there were still 2 downs left. That throw doesn't need to happen. Yes the receiver is expected to be there but you can't tell me Tommy is blindly throwing these balls . It looks like the receiver is held up before he makes his throw. So if he expects that receiver to be there does he hust not notice that he is still 10 yard from where he needs to be?? I'm seriously trying to understand this.

 

[Redux]

After an awful dump pass to A double to open the drive he connects with a perfect throw to Moore and then the other great throw that somehow falls out of Moore's hands. How the hell did we lose that game...

 

[BigRedBuster]

Can I blame Tommy for the piss poor throw on 1st and 10 of that drive where he completely botches a wide open Abdullah or was that Abdullah's fault somehow?

No...that's fine if it really was his fault. I don't remember that play. But, the one that is being discussed was not his fault. You can keep saying it was over and over but that doesn't make it so.

I have watched this final play over and over again. The throw was on a rope. It wasn't a lob. The WR could easily be several yards in front of the DB and make the catch.

 

[Redux]

I understand he could and should have been there.

But how does he not notice his receiver is still back 10 yards nowhere near the target are. The pass was great, look how easily the defender caught it.

 

[BigRedBuster]

I understand he could and should have been there.

But how does he not notice his receiver is still back 10 yards nowhere near the target are. The pass was great, look how easily the defender caught it.

OK...look...I'm done with the conversation.

Basically everyone I have seen analyze the play says the interception happened because the WRs ran into each other and Tommy did what he was supposed to do. Not sure how else to explain it to you if you choose not to believe it.

So....I'll let you go on believing that and let's talk about other things.

 

[Redux]

I'll just drop it. I'm looking for a reason the pass was thrown, not the reason it would have been a great reception if the receiver made it to the spot. I see that. He didn't get there, the defender did, interception. Understood. Still think the throw wasn't necessary.

 

[cg_8]

I understand he could and should have been there.

But how does he not notice his receiver is still back 10 yards nowhere near the target are. The pass was great, look how easily the defender caught it.

Timing. Tommy used to Bell most likely in that situation. He throws where Bell most likely would have been, as he probably had been in practice. Hovey, ran it maybe once before. Maybe...

Let's break it down like this. Let's subtract ourselves from a passing play and into a buck sweep.

Look at the play below.

Two pulling guards. If that second pulling guard (#63) runs into another lineman, or trips over one of their foot, the timing and play is blown. Because his block on the inside second level is essential to creating that running lane. If he isn't there, due to not moving fast enough or tripping/running into a fellow player, this play is broken because the RB couldn't run passed a slower LB.

OR

The WR doesn't crack block the first LB. A potential TD turns into a disaster because one guy, for one reason or another, doesn't execute.

The RB isn't going to stop running because he's ran the play numerous times, and knows what he should expect.

It comes down to timing and execution. Tommy was expecting one thing, but it didn't end up happening.

If nothing else, this is just an excuse to watch the buck sweep...

 

[Redux]

Awesome breakdown. Makes sense. I guess the thing that bothers me, other than the game losing pick, is that we had 2 downs left. Why are we running plays that clearly require a dfferent player who is sidelined, poor choice on play caller.

Yet on the play Tommy seems like he knew the whole time he was going there. Hell the defender knew it too. Just seems like there could have been a better adjustment from the QB and WR's not to mention the play caller.

 

[Igetbored216]

I always hated the option routes in Beck's offense. The hitch, out/in route was one of his favorites, and also one that created many interceptions. If the WR and QB weren't on the same page, the end result was a ball that looked like the QB threw right to the defender.

Another important point is that QBs don't throw to open receivers (normally). QBs throw to spots that will be open based on the defense's coverage and the route the WR is running. For instance, a basic hitch route: WR runs x amount of yards downfield, stops, and takes two steps back toward the LOS. If the QB reads man coverage with two deep, the QB would throw the ball to the WR before he has even stopped and turned around. He wouldn't want to throw it after the WR stopped and turned around, because the defender would be there to pick or swat the ball away. I think this basic idea is the point that BigRedBuster has been trying to make. In the specific play being discussed against Michigan St, the WR wasn't in the right spot, so it looked like Armstrong threw it right to the defender.

Regardless, I hope none of you are expecting Tommy to have some breakout year throwing the ball all over the field. I think 60% completion with limited interceptions would be an impressive feat for him, and should win a lot of games. I am hopeful Riley sticks to "basing the offense off the skills of the current players", rather than trying to run a certain play because it has worked in the past. Many coaches say this - Beck included - but then resort to what they are comfortable with, rather than what their players are comfortable with. The ideal offense, and one that would put the most points up on the board this year, would probably be one based around the jet sweep. Jet sweep is such a great play to base an offense around, because you are able to set up so many other plays from it (play action, option read, reverse, fake with handoff to the RB, etc.).

 

[Enhance]

I fully understood the quote from the coach. It really wasn't that complex of a concept to understand. However, it is EXTREMELY complex for the QB and WR to be on the same page. It literally takes hours and hours and game after game to be able to be on that same page. Ward might run that rout one way and if he gets hurt, the backup might run it differently enough that it throws off the Roethlisberger.

You're absolutely correct. That's why QB's spend so much time with their WR's working on timing and chemistry. It's critical.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you're getting at is you don't think it's productive to do these kinds of routes if the QB and WR don't have the time to put in the work and make the plays successful. And you're right - if they can't do it, it's not productive. But, college defenses are often good enough that you need to be able to spruce up your attack, and in Riley's type of offense, option routes may be applicable. Just like they were with Beck.

So, in one breath it appeared you were criticizing option routes in general, and in another breath it seems you're criticizing their use at Nebraska. Both different things there. If our players can't get it down then it would be unwise to force them, and as Riley has said, he's not a guy who wants to force players into things they're not good at.

My whole purpose was mainly just explaining option routes and their application, not their validity in our offense.

My point is three fold:

1) Yes, if the players don't have the time to put in to get the chemistry down, it is a bad idea to run that complex of a system at Nebraska.

2) Tommy is constantly criticized for "staring down" receivers. I believe that is in part due to him needing to watch receivers to know what rout they are running before he throws the ball. It would be much more difficult to look one way and throw the other if he doesn't know where the receiver is going to be.

3) I have said many times, I believe many of the "bad throws" or interceptions or near interceptions are due to the QB and WR not being on the same page in this system. In this thread there have been two notable ones mentioned. There were more.

Hopefully by changing this system our passing game improves.

And, yes, I still understand our passing game is going to be complex and it needs to be. But, my understanding is that it will be easier for the players to be on the same page.

I follow you. I know some variations of the WCO utilize more option routes, while others focus more on timing/precision routes. Have there been any quotes from Riley/Langsdorf yet regarding this? Just curious.

 

[Scratchtown]

I understand he could and should have been there.

But how does he not notice his receiver is still back 10 yards nowhere near the target are. The pass was great, look how easily the defender caught it.

Timing. Tommy used to Bell most likely in that situation. He throws where Bell most likely would have been, as he probably had been in practice. Hovey, ran it maybe once before. Maybe...

Let's break it down like this. Let's subtract ourselves from a passing play and into a buck sweep.

Look at the play below.

Two pulling guards. If that second pulling guard (#63) runs into another lineman, or trips over one of their foot, the timing and play is blown. Because his block on the inside second level is essential to creating that running lane. If he isn't there, due to not moving fast enough or tripping/running into a fellow player, this play is broken because the RB couldn't run passed a slower LB.

OR

The WR doesn't crack block the first LB. A potential TD turns into a disaster because one guy, for one reason or another, doesn't execute.

The RB isn't going to stop running because he's ran the play numerous times, and knows what he should expect.

It comes down to timing and execution. Tommy was expecting one thing, but it didn't end up happening.

If nothing else, this is just an excuse to watch the buck sweep...

I wouldn't mind being able to watch games from that high angle behind the play for an entire game.

Trying to get our HS to get one of those endzone camera's that are always being marketed at every coaching clinic ever. Problem is, that it's way too damn expensive. So much easier for film breakdown when teaching to kids, especially the OLine and their first steps etc...

 

[Mavric]

2. Is Tommy Armstrong the guy at QB?

He has to be. There really are no viable options with experience beyond the junior. Armstrong excels on deep throws. Short throws? Not so much so. And, that’s an issue in Mike Riley’s offense, a pro-style that features myriad shorter tosses. Armstrong was spotty with his accuracy when we watched practice. But don’t expect Riley to do what Bill Callahan did when he took over in Lincoln with Joe Dailey at quarterback. That is: force a round peg into a square hole. Riley seemingly will work around and accentuate the talent on hand, playing to its strengths while folding in elements of his offense. To that end, Armstrong is practicing the zone-read play he is so adept at running.

BTN

 

[BigRedBuster]

I'll just drop it. I'm looking for a reason the pass was thrown, not the reason it would have been a great reception if the receiver made it to the spot. I see that. He didn't get there, the defender did, interception. Understood. Still think the throw wasn't necessary.

Watch the video. The pass is at 1:59.

The receivers were running into each other basically as he started throwing.

http://www.btn2go.com/video/nebraska-at-michigan-state--football-highlights

 

[Saunders]

Am I the only one who somewhat wishes we could have seen Beck a year without the Bo handcuffs on? The bowl game, that's what I was hoping to get from Beck in looking at his old film. And we scored, a lot.

We will get to see it, but he'll being doing it in Ohio.