Weird Time for Christians

Well, there are more than a few scientists who would disagree with the above posts.  Either one of these listed below, have greater smarts that the collective smarts of all of us (me included) on HB and we have some real smart people on HB.   If one can conclude with 100% certainty that there is no 'god', then that person must have 100% knowledge and by default they have made themselves into a self-made god.  



A quick google search can bring up a list of many esteemed scientists who do not believe in myths and who do believe that religious faith and science are not in conflict. 



https://www.magiscenter.com/blog/23-famous-scientists-who-believe-in-god#:~:text=In the early history of,had a deep religious faith.


A few quotes from the above link - notice the many Nobel Prize winners - and not for insignificant things but for medicine, physics, chemistry, mathematics, high energy physics, nuclear physics, etc. 


1. Professor Christian Anfinsen*


(Nobel Prize for Chemistry, biochemistry of RNA, Johns Hopkins University): "I think that only an idiot can be an atheist! We must admit that there exists an incomprehensible power or force with limitless foresight and knowledge that started the whole universe going in the first place."


2. Professor Werner Archer


(Nobel Prize for Physiology/Medicine, restriction enzymes and molecular genetics, University of Basel): "I do not think our civilization has succeeded in discovering and explaining all the principles acting in the universe.  I include the concept of God among these principles. I am happy to accept the concept without trying to define it precisely.  I know that the concept of God helped me to master many questions in life; it guides me in critical situations and I see it confirmed in many deep insights into the beauty of the functioning of the living world."


3. Professor D.H.R. Barton***


(Nobel Prize for Chemistry, conformational analysis in organic chemistry, Texas A&M University): "God is Truth. There is no incompatibility between science and religion. Both are seeking the same truth."


4. Professor Ulrich Becker**


(High energy particle physics, MIT): "How can I exist without a creator? I am not aware of any answer ever given."


5. Professor Steven Bernasek


(Solid state chemistry, Princeton University): "I believe in the existence of God. His existence is apparent to me in everything around me, especially in my work as a scientist. On the other hand I cannot prove the existence of God the way I might prove or disprove a (scientific) hypothesis."


9. Professor Manfred Eigen


(Nobel Prize for Chemistry, fast reaction kinetics, Director Max Planck Institute for Biophysical Chemistry, Gottingen): "...religion and science neither exclude nor prove one another."


10. Professor John Fornaess*


(Mathematics, Princeton Univ.): "I believe that there is a God and that God brings structure to the universe at all levels from elementary particles to human being to superclusters of galaxies."


11. Professor P.C.C. Garnham***


(Medical protozoology, University of London): "God originated the universe or universes... At some stage in evolution when proto-humans were sufficiently advanced, God created the human soul... By faith and by appreciation of scientific necessity, God must exist."


12. Professor Conyers Herring*


(Solid state physics, Princeton University): "We live in a hard, real universe, to which we have to adapt. God is a characteristic of that universe—indeed a miraculous characteristic—that makes that adaption possible. Things such as truth, goodness, even happiness, are achievable, by virtue of a force that is always present, in the here and now and available to me personally."


15. Professor Robert Neumann*


(nuclear and isotope chemistry and physics, Princeton University): "The existence of the universe requires me to conclude that God exists."


17. Dr. Arno Penzias*


(Nobel Prize for physics for first observation of the universal microwave background radiation, Vice-President for Research, AT&T Bell Laboratories): "...by looking at the order in the world, we can infer purpose and from purpose we begin to get some knowledge of the Creator, the Planner of all this. This is, then, how I look at God. I look at God through the works of God’s hands and from those works imply intentions. From these intentions, I receive an impression of the Almighty.” (TG: Read Romans 1:19-20 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.  For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.)


19. Professor Abdus Salam***


(Nobel Prize for physics (elementary particle theory), Director, International Centre for Theoretical Physics, Trieste): "Now this sense of wonder leads most scientists to a Superior Being—der Alte, the Old One, as Einstein affectionately called the Deity—a Superior Intelligence, the Lord of all Creation and Natural Law."


20. Professor Arthur Schawlow*


(Nobel Prize for Physics [laser physics], Stanford University): "It seems to me that when confronted with the marvels of life one must ask why and not just how. The only possible answers are religious... I find a need for God in the universe and in my own life."


21. Professor Wolfgang Smith


(Philosophy, Mathematics and Physics, Oregon State University. His theoretical work provided the key for solving the re-entry problem in space flight): "If the physics of the last century prompted atheism, the physics of today is inciting at least the most thoughtful of its votaries to re-examine 'the question of God.'"


22. Professor Charles Townes*


(Nobel Prize for physics, development of the MASER/LASER, University of California, Berkeley): "I believe in the concept of God and in His existence."


23. Professor Eugene Wigner*


(Nobel Prize for physics, applications of symmetry principles—group theory to quantum mechanics—Princeton University): "The concept of God is a wonderful one—it also helps us makes decisions in the right direction. We would be very different, I fear, if we did not have that concept."


100 eminent Christian scientists (to believe in God does not make you an uncultivated)  OR BELIEVE IN MYTHS


https://www.outono.net/elentir/2017/06/20/100-eminent-christian-scientists-to-believe-in-god-does-not-make-you-an-uncultivated/

and a few more

https://www.magiscenter.com/blog/how-these-scientists-belief-in-god-helped-them-understand-nature

 
Well, there are more than a few scientists who would disagree with the above posts.  Either one of these listed below, have greater smarts that the collective smarts of all of us (me included) on HB and we have some real smart people on HB.   If one can conclude with 100% certainty that there is no 'god', then that person must have 100% knowledge and by default they have made themselves into a self-made god.  



A quick google search can bring up a list of many esteemed scientists who do not believe in myths and who do believe that religious faith and science are not in conflict. 



https://www.magiscenter.com/blog/23-famous-scientists-who-believe-in-god#:~:text=In the early history of,had a deep religious faith.


A few quotes from the above link - notice the many Nobel Prize winners - and not for insignificant things but for medicine, physics, chemistry, mathematics, high energy physics, nuclear physics, etc. 


1. Professor Christian Anfinsen*


(Nobel Prize for Chemistry, biochemistry of RNA, Johns Hopkins University): "I think that only an idiot can be an atheist! We must admit that there exists an incomprehensible power or force with limitless foresight and knowledge that started the whole universe going in the first place."


2. Professor Werner Archer


(Nobel Prize for Physiology/Medicine, restriction enzymes and molecular genetics, University of Basel): "I do not think our civilization has succeeded in discovering and explaining all the principles acting in the universe.  I include the concept of God among these principles. I am happy to accept the concept without trying to define it precisely.  I know that the concept of God helped me to master many questions in life; it guides me in critical situations and I see it confirmed in many deep insights into the beauty of the functioning of the living world."


3. Professor D.H.R. Barton***


(Nobel Prize for Chemistry, conformational analysis in organic chemistry, Texas A&M University): "God is Truth. There is no incompatibility between science and religion. Both are seeking the same truth."


4. Professor Ulrich Becker**


(High energy particle physics, MIT): "How can I exist without a creator? I am not aware of any answer ever given."


5. Professor Steven Bernasek


(Solid state chemistry, Princeton University): "I believe in the existence of God. His existence is apparent to me in everything around me, especially in my work as a scientist. On the other hand I cannot prove the existence of God the way I might prove or disprove a (scientific) hypothesis."


9. Professor Manfred Eigen


(Nobel Prize for Chemistry, fast reaction kinetics, Director Max Planck Institute for Biophysical Chemistry, Gottingen): "...religion and science neither exclude nor prove one another."


10. Professor John Fornaess*


(Mathematics, Princeton Univ.): "I believe that there is a God and that God brings structure to the universe at all levels from elementary particles to human being to superclusters of galaxies."


11. Professor P.C.C. Garnham***


(Medical protozoology, University of London): "God originated the universe or universes... At some stage in evolution when proto-humans were sufficiently advanced, God created the human soul... By faith and by appreciation of scientific necessity, God must exist."


12. Professor Conyers Herring*


(Solid state physics, Princeton University): "We live in a hard, real universe, to which we have to adapt. God is a characteristic of that universe—indeed a miraculous characteristic—that makes that adaption possible. Things such as truth, goodness, even happiness, are achievable, by virtue of a force that is always present, in the here and now and available to me personally."


15. Professor Robert Neumann*


(nuclear and isotope chemistry and physics, Princeton University): "The existence of the universe requires me to conclude that God exists."


17. Dr. Arno Penzias*


(Nobel Prize for physics for first observation of the universal microwave background radiation, Vice-President for Research, AT&T Bell Laboratories): "...by looking at the order in the world, we can infer purpose and from purpose we begin to get some knowledge of the Creator, the Planner of all this. This is, then, how I look at God. I look at God through the works of God’s hands and from those works imply intentions. From these intentions, I receive an impression of the Almighty.” (TG: Read Romans 1:19-20 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.  For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.)


19. Professor Abdus Salam***


(Nobel Prize for physics (elementary particle theory), Director, International Centre for Theoretical Physics, Trieste): "Now this sense of wonder leads most scientists to a Superior Being—der Alte, the Old One, as Einstein affectionately called the Deity—a Superior Intelligence, the Lord of all Creation and Natural Law."


20. Professor Arthur Schawlow*


(Nobel Prize for Physics [laser physics], Stanford University): "It seems to me that when confronted with the marvels of life one must ask why and not just how. The only possible answers are religious... I find a need for God in the universe and in my own life."


21. Professor Wolfgang Smith


(Philosophy, Mathematics and Physics, Oregon State University. His theoretical work provided the key for solving the re-entry problem in space flight): "If the physics of the last century prompted atheism, the physics of today is inciting at least the most thoughtful of its votaries to re-examine 'the question of God.'"


22. Professor Charles Townes*


(Nobel Prize for physics, development of the MASER/LASER, University of California, Berkeley): "I believe in the concept of God and in His existence."


23. Professor Eugene Wigner*


(Nobel Prize for physics, applications of symmetry principles—group theory to quantum mechanics—Princeton University): "The concept of God is a wonderful one—it also helps us makes decisions in the right direction. We would be very different, I fear, if we did not have that concept."


100 eminent Christian scientists (to believe in God does not make you an uncultivated)  OR BELIEVE IN MYTHS


https://www.outono.net/elentir/2017/06/20/100-eminent-christian-scientists-to-believe-in-god-does-not-make-you-an-uncultivated/

and a few more

https://www.magiscenter.com/blog/how-these-scientists-belief-in-god-helped-them-understand-nature
I don’t think all of the “nones” are atheist at all.  I think most, like myself, are more in the agnostic state of mind.

Christianity, does conflict with science to our current knowledge.  As long as a persons version requires the belief that a human died and was “magically” raised from the dead.

I believe in Jesus.  I respect his teachings as I was taught to understand them.  But I could know longer believe that my afterlife required believing the impossible rather than trying my best to just be a good person.  I might have shared it before, but the nail in the coffin for me saying I was Christian was when the pastor of my childhood church said it was impossible for Ghandi to go to heaven without taking Jesus as his savior.  I just said, “ok, I’m out”.  I don’t want to spend eternity with that god.

 
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The irony is comical but sums up religion pretty well honestly.
It's like 10,000s spoons when all you need is a knife.

Well, there are more than a few scientists who would disagree with the above posts.  Either one of these listed below, have greater smarts that the collective smarts of all of us (me included) on HB and we have some real smart people on HB.   If one can conclude with 100% certainty that there is no 'god', then that person must have 100% knowledge and by default they have made themselves into a self-made god.  



A quick google search can bring up a list of many esteemed scientists who do not believe in myths and who do believe that religious faith and science are not in conflict. 



https://www.magiscenter.com/blog/23-famous-scientists-who-believe-in-god#:~:text=In the early history of,had a deep religious faith.


A few quotes from the above link - notice the many Nobel Prize winners - and not for insignificant things but for medicine, physics, chemistry, mathematics, high energy physics, nuclear physics, etc. 


1. Professor Christian Anfinsen*


(Nobel Prize for Chemistry, biochemistry of RNA, Johns Hopkins University): "I think that only an idiot can be an atheist! We must admit that there exists an incomprehensible power or force with limitless foresight and knowledge that started the whole universe going in the first place."


2. Professor Werner Archer


(Nobel Prize for Physiology/Medicine, restriction enzymes and molecular genetics, University of Basel): "I do not think our civilization has succeeded in discovering and explaining all the principles acting in the universe.  I include the concept of God among these principles. I am happy to accept the concept without trying to define it precisely.  I know that the concept of God helped me to master many questions in life; it guides me in critical situations and I see it confirmed in many deep insights into the beauty of the functioning of the living world."


3. Professor D.H.R. Barton***


(Nobel Prize for Chemistry, conformational analysis in organic chemistry, Texas A&M University): "God is Truth. There is no incompatibility between science and religion. Both are seeking the same truth."


4. Professor Ulrich Becker**


(High energy particle physics, MIT): "How can I exist without a creator? I am not aware of any answer ever given."


5. Professor Steven Bernasek


(Solid state chemistry, Princeton University): "I believe in the existence of God. His existence is apparent to me in everything around me, especially in my work as a scientist. On the other hand I cannot prove the existence of God the way I might prove or disprove a (scientific) hypothesis."


9. Professor Manfred Eigen


(Nobel Prize for Chemistry, fast reaction kinetics, Director Max Planck Institute for Biophysical Chemistry, Gottingen): "...religion and science neither exclude nor prove one another."


10. Professor John Fornaess*


(Mathematics, Princeton Univ.): "I believe that there is a God and that God brings structure to the universe at all levels from elementary particles to human being to superclusters of galaxies."


11. Professor P.C.C. Garnham***


(Medical protozoology, University of London): "God originated the universe or universes... At some stage in evolution when proto-humans were sufficiently advanced, God created the human soul... By faith and by appreciation of scientific necessity, God must exist."


12. Professor Conyers Herring*


(Solid state physics, Princeton University): "We live in a hard, real universe, to which we have to adapt. God is a characteristic of that universe—indeed a miraculous characteristic—that makes that adaption possible. Things such as truth, goodness, even happiness, are achievable, by virtue of a force that is always present, in the here and now and available to me personally."


15. Professor Robert Neumann*


(nuclear and isotope chemistry and physics, Princeton University): "The existence of the universe requires me to conclude that God exists."


17. Dr. Arno Penzias*


(Nobel Prize for physics for first observation of the universal microwave background radiation, Vice-President for Research, AT&T Bell Laboratories): "...by looking at the order in the world, we can infer purpose and from purpose we begin to get some knowledge of the Creator, the Planner of all this. This is, then, how I look at God. I look at God through the works of God’s hands and from those works imply intentions. From these intentions, I receive an impression of the Almighty.” (TG: Read Romans 1:19-20 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.  For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.)


19. Professor Abdus Salam***


(Nobel Prize for physics (elementary particle theory), Director, International Centre for Theoretical Physics, Trieste): "Now this sense of wonder leads most scientists to a Superior Being—der Alte, the Old One, as Einstein affectionately called the Deity—a Superior Intelligence, the Lord of all Creation and Natural Law."


20. Professor Arthur Schawlow*


(Nobel Prize for Physics [laser physics], Stanford University): "It seems to me that when confronted with the marvels of life one must ask why and not just how. The only possible answers are religious... I find a need for God in the universe and in my own life."


21. Professor Wolfgang Smith


(Philosophy, Mathematics and Physics, Oregon State University. His theoretical work provided the key for solving the re-entry problem in space flight): "If the physics of the last century prompted atheism, the physics of today is inciting at least the most thoughtful of its votaries to re-examine 'the question of God.'"


22. Professor Charles Townes*


(Nobel Prize for physics, development of the MASER/LASER, University of California, Berkeley): "I believe in the concept of God and in His existence."


23. Professor Eugene Wigner*


(Nobel Prize for physics, applications of symmetry principles—group theory to quantum mechanics—Princeton University): "The concept of God is a wonderful one—it also helps us makes decisions in the right direction. We would be very different, I fear, if we did not have that concept."


100 eminent Christian scientists (to believe in God does not make you an uncultivated)  OR BELIEVE IN MYTHS


https://www.outono.net/elentir/2017/06/20/100-eminent-christian-scientists-to-believe-in-god-does-not-make-you-an-uncultivated/

and a few more

https://www.magiscenter.com/blog/how-these-scientists-belief-in-god-helped-them-understand-nature
They're not in conflict because God is in the ever receding shadows that science has yet shed light on.

 
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 I might have shared it before, but the nail in the coffin for me saying I was Christian was when the pastor of my childhood church said it was impossible for Ghandi to go to heaven without taking Jesus as his savior.  I just said, “ok, I’m out”.  I don’t want to spend eternity with that god.
There is a growing number of evangelicals who have come to the same conclusion but have taken a different path.  What if the old narrative was wrong.  Do you know that it wasn't until Augustine that the doctrine of eternal hell started to become more prevalent in the church?  This doctrine of fear kept people in the pews and also loyal to the Roman church and therefore the Roman govt. Church/state tied at the hip. 

Prior to that there were 6 main theological New Testament schools - one taught eternal damnation - the Roman one, one taught annihilation (we die and puff we are completely gone), 4 taught Christian Universalism - the belief that all people would ultimately be reconciled to God through Jesus. Many verses support this:    https://www.patheos.com/blogs/keithgiles/2021/07/76-bible-verses-to-support-universal-reconciliation/

There are some very thoughtful Christian/evangelical scholars who are bringing this position back to life again.  It is the best position that honors God's good nature and plan for all people.  

David Artman has a very good podcast on the subject: Start at #1 podcast and you get a real good review of the position by podcast 20

https://www.davidartman.net/

youtube discussion wt David Artman


Many websites but here is one with many resources  

https://tentmaker.org/

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html

Books that I have read:

This first one listed and highlighted really rocked my world.  Deep thinking book.  


The Inescapable Love of God  Thomas Talbott


Her Gates will Never Shut  by Brad Jersak

That All Might be Saved  David Bentley Hart

Grace Saves All    David Artman

Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God  Brian Zahnd 

 
8 minutes ago, TGHusker said:

There is a growing number of evangelicals who have come to the same conclusion but have taken a different path.  What if the old narrative was wrong.  Do you know that it wasn't until Augustine that the doctrine of eternal hell started to become more prevalent in the church?  This doctrine of fear kept people in the pews and also loyal to the Roman church and therefore the Roman govt. Church/state tied at the hip. 

Prior to that there were 6 main theological New Testament schools - one taught eternal damnation - the Roman one, one taught annihilation (we die and puff we are completely gone), 4 taught Christian Universalism - the belief that all people would ultimately be reconciled to God through Jesus. Many verses support this:    https://www.patheos.com/blogs/keithgiles/2021/07/76-bible-verses-to-support-universal-reconciliation/

There are some very thoughtful Christian/evangelical scholars who are bringing this position back to life again.  It is the best position that honors God's good nature and plan for all people.  

David Artman has a very good podcast on the subject: Start at #1 podcast and you get a real good review of the position by podcast 20

https://www.davidartman.net/

youtube discussion wt David Artman

And if that’s the case, we’ll find out when I die.  But the resurrection of Jesus, which is a requirement to truly be Christian, is at odds with science.  
 

Also, I appreciate the links.  It was actually taught this way by a lot of the pastors I enjoyed.  I was ELCA Lutheran. So many of our pastors were well aware and openly admitted the hack job that Rome did to the original teachings.

 
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As long as science can't provide an empirical reason why the universe exists, how time began, and what exactly was happening before that, we will all ponder and marvel and entertain a greatness beyond our grasp.

I get why it would be comforting to know that a benevolent God has answers and plans for everything, but I think leaving it at unknowable wonder is more accurate, and probably encourages us to do all we can to make each life matter in the moment. Good churches still do that. 

End of the day, each of us crafts a semblance of God in our own image. The loving and empathetic Gods are the best. 

 
God is in the ever receding shadows that science has yet shed light on.
Funny, those many scientists who I quoted above and who have shed light & removed the shadows on many of the complicated issues of life, would beg to differ.   Perhaps you didn't take the time to read them :dunno   Here is a small sample again.  An open mind, like those of these scientists, can lead to a different perspective. 


11. Professor P.C.C. Garnham***


(Medical protozoology, University of London): "God originated the universe or universes... At some stage in evolution when proto-humans were sufficiently advanced, God created the human soul... By faith and by appreciation of scientific necessity, God must exist."


15. Professor Robert Neumann*


(nuclear and isotope chemistry and physics, Princeton University): "The existence of the universe requires me to conclude that God exists."


17. Dr. Arno Penzias*


(Nobel Prize for physics for first observation of the universal microwave background radiation, Vice-President for Research, AT&T Bell Laboratories): "...by looking at the order in the world, we can infer purpose and from purpose we begin to get some knowledge of the Creator, the Planner of all this. This is, then, how I look at God. I look at God through the works of God’s hands and from those works imply intentions. From these intentions, I receive an impression of the Almighty.” (TG: Read Romans 1:19-20 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.  For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.)


20. Professor Arthur Schawlow*


(Nobel Prize for Physics [laser physics], Stanford University): "It seems to me that when confronted with the marvels of life one must ask why and not just how. The only possible answers are religious... I find a need for God in the universe and in my own life."


21. Professor Wolfgang Smith


(Philosophy, Mathematics and Physics, Oregon State University. His theoretical work provided the key for solving the re-entry problem in space flight): "If the physics of the last century prompted atheism, the physics of today is inciting at least the most thoughtful of its votaries to re-examine 'the question of God.'"

 
Funny, those many scientists who I quoted above and who have shed light & removed the shadows on many of the complicated issues of life, would beg to differ.   Perhaps you didn't take the time to read them :dunno   Here is a small sample again.  An open mind, like those of these scientists, can lead to a different perspective. 


11. Professor P.C.C. Garnham***


(Medical protozoology, University of London): "God originated the universe or universes... At some stage in evolution when proto-humans were sufficiently advanced, God created the human soul... By faith and by appreciation of scientific necessity, God must exist."


15. Professor Robert Neumann*


(nuclear and isotope chemistry and physics, Princeton University): "The existence of the universe requires me to conclude that God exists."


17. Dr. Arno Penzias*


(Nobel Prize for physics for first observation of the universal microwave background radiation, Vice-President for Research, AT&T Bell Laboratories): "...by looking at the order in the world, we can infer purpose and from purpose we begin to get some knowledge of the Creator, the Planner of all this. This is, then, how I look at God. I look at God through the works of God’s hands and from those works imply intentions. From these intentions, I receive an impression of the Almighty.” (TG: Read Romans 1:19-20 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.  For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.)


20. Professor Arthur Schawlow*


(Nobel Prize for Physics [laser physics], Stanford University): "It seems to me that when confronted with the marvels of life one must ask why and not just how. The only possible answers are religious... I find a need for God in the universe and in my own life."


21. Professor Wolfgang Smith


(Philosophy, Mathematics and Physics, Oregon State University. His theoretical work provided the key for solving the re-entry problem in space flight): "If the physics of the last century prompted atheism, the physics of today is inciting at least the most thoughtful of its votaries to re-examine 'the question of God.'"
You might want to reread and rethink your own quotes. Outside of the one about order (which makes zero sense unless your are a creationist), and the last one which has no logic, they are all inferring that since I can't answer the question of how the universe started I will fill in the blank with "god".

Which is fine. I can agree with that, because our minds are incapable of understanding something from nothing. To say a god still has it's hand on the universe is foolish. Everything that ever was and ever will be was set in motion billions of years ago, and is the result of one single event. Not continued intercession from some invisible being.

 
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I don't disagree with billions of years ago. I am not a young earth, young universe advocate.  However, for something to be set in motion, there must be a first cause.  God is that first cause. 
It's possible but everything else we thought was done by gods or God turned out not to be. We can explain the wind and the waves, nuclear fusion and how the stars work, etc. Jumping to the conclusion that a God is the first cause seems as likely as it having been a council of wizards.

 
It's possible but everything else we thought was done by gods or God turned out not to be. We can explain the wind and the waves, nuclear fusion and how the stars work, etc. Jumping to the conclusion that a God is the first cause seems as likely as it having been a council of wizards.
We can agree to disagree on this. Until we see clearly we all live by some type of faith , - wizards, God or otherwise. 

We all have a world view blanket to help us to make sense of the world we live in.  As the Apostle Paul said, we only see in part - and he said that as a man of faith.  None of us have 100% knowledge (if we did, we'd be 'god').  God or the any other 'answer' may lie in one of those unknown spheres of knowledge that we haven't tapped into.  Thus we  debate but we also give grace.  

When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.  For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
One of my favorite Far Side cartoons  - The Snorkel Blanket is a kind of world view covering. 

 
ddef5bb60430cb28bfb9ac6cda78c2f4.jpg


 
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As long as science can't provide an empirical reason why the universe exists, how time began, and what exactly was happening before that, we will all ponder and marvel and entertain a greatness beyond our grasp.

I get why it would be comforting to know that a benevolent God has answers and plans for everything, but I think leaving it at unknowable wonder is more accurate, and probably encourages us to do all we can to make each life matter in the moment. Good churches still do that. 

End of the day, each of us crafts a semblance of God in our own image. The loving and empathetic Gods are the best. 






Good thoughts, and very in line with Jesus of Nazareth in fact. Core themes of his work involved forsaking certainty and security and safety (as manifested by tribalism, legalism, and "idolatry" ie crafting their own desired interpretation of God) in favor of being an active participant in the confusing journey and exploration of life and being a human.

At the end of the day, God is just a word. Two baptists in the same church believing the same things still have different ideas of what or who god is, and most of us believe in some internal matrix of ultimate good and value in the world that isn't functionally all that different than something someone else would name as god.

 
Until we see clearly we all live by some type of faith


This isn't true. I have no faith in anything related to existence, or gods. Many people don't require faith of any kind.

Evidence shows that early, uneducated man couldn't explain natural events like lightning, volcanoes, earthquakes, etc. so the attributed these events to gods. There were thousands of gods. You know about tons of them. 

Some of us - and, according to polls, now the largest bloc of Americans - are coming to understand that the old explanation for gods just isn't necessary anymore. We know why lightning occurs, or earthquakes. We don't have to fill in the blank with a god. 

As we've come to understand things, gods have fallen by the wayside. No one worships Zeus anymore because we realize the things he was invented to explain can be explained by science. Some day the Christian god will join them. Maybe it'll be replaced with something else, maybe we'll just collectively agree not to believe in such things. 

The scientists you keep quoting haven't shown that gods are real, they've shown that they don't have all the answers. And as @ZRod explained, they're just filling in the blank with "god." 

I've been there. I understand why people who would otherwise realize gods aren't real. Societal pressures, family expectations, a desire for community... there are a lot of reasons people would ignore the lack of empirical data and just "believe." That's what I did, for decades. And telling friends and family that I couldn't fake it any more was really hard, but I couldn't continue living a lie. Some people can stuff down those feelings and just do what's easiest. That wasn't me.

 
The Bertrand Russell quote often applied to our political situation:

"The problem with the world is that the ignorant are cocksure and the wise are full of doubt"

Us agnostics think the doubts are fascinating, debate-worthy and unavoidable. But it's much easier and more convenient to be cocksure. 

 
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